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you make the call
In a recent youth basketball game a young fella - reacting out of frustration, hauled off and kicked his defensive opponent in the face (please see video clip hereYou Make the Call - YouTube No call was made regarding such. How would you re-act to this issue and what would be your call - if you made a call at all?
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I don't see that "step" as losing his balance, or moving to another spot. But I'm not 100% (yet?) that is deliberate.
At minimum, I have a technical foul. If it was deliberate, then flagrant. |
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Didn't look deliberate to me. Not sure that I would have anything either.
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It looks deliberate to me, he's done.
If I see it. It's quick, and neither official has the same angle as the camera, so it's very possible they didn't see it. Turn this video in to the league, though, and let them deal with it. This is the sort of play that can be dealt with after the fact. They may not agree with me that it was deliberate, but that's not a normal movement IMO. |
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Now that I've viewed it I would judge it a flagrant technical (judging held ball occurred first) despite the immediate remorse A1 is showing. I think he got frustrated and kicked his opponent and then realized what he did. |
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That's a flagrant, imo.
That was not a "step"...if it was a "step" his momentum would have kept him going in that direction. He's got the ball tucked under his arm and he kicks the kid in the face. Bye-bye. |
That's not even legal under the unified rules of mixed marital arts...and that's a flagrant foul if I'm working the game.
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Wow
He sure does seem like he is frustrated and kicks. I dont think he realized he was going to hit the kid in the head. I would eject him and hope he learns when faces are on the floor getting frustrated and kicking has serious consequences.
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Flagrant T. The officials may have gotten blocked on this but it illustrates perfectly why we have to keep officiating after the whistle is blown.
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Eek. Watched it full screen. Definitely flagrant.
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This is not the act of some clumsy, underachieving, frustrated ball player. |
Judging by the officials shorts, this looks like some off season ball. Never know what you're gonna get there when it comes to officiating, coaching & players alike.
BUT the L is wearing college wides so that makes me pay a bit more attention to him as it suggests he may have a college schedule. This video is great reinforcement of why we need to close down on held balls... especially in the paint. Not knowing whats happened up to this point in the game, the score seems to favor A1 & I wouldn't think he would be in frustration mode. It looks flagrant to me, I would like to believe I would use proper held ball procedures & not have to respond to this play as opposed to (the OPs question) reacting to it. It appears that the L was more concerned about his holding his perfect signal up high than using his voice while dead balling his call & I wonder what the T was looking at after the whistle. Curious, was this called a held ball & nothing more?? |
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Tref, you make a good point about moving closer to the play on the held ball. If the L gets in quickly I don't know if it prevents the kick but at least he sees it and can deal with it. As Snaq pointed out, if the officials had the same view as the camera maybe (hopefully) a call is made. JugglingRef...it doesn't have to be deliberate to be a flagrant: Quote:
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In the NBA that's nothing because the officials have to account for a player's momentum. :p
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Flagrant T. Send him to the bench, talk with the coach, and hope the kid learns his lesson.
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Inadvertent ...
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Billymac don't feel alone
I originally posted the question re: the call. I took advice and sent to league director - who forwarded to his officiating director - an official who claims - and with great prideful vigor and a listing of his prolific credits as a D1 Women's Basketball official (no disrespect for such referees intended) - great experience etc. and thus patronized me with such. His response was much less than what I had hoped for. He, like Billymac did not see anything wrong with the incident - calling it, "purely a basketball play." I was obviously disappointed and totally disagree with his call on the matter. Too bad for all - the program, the boy who committed the infraction (who will not learn from it) and obviously the boy who received the kick in the face - along with his $5,000 worth of dental work. A case of protecting image of program and the officiating director's (I think highly of myself);) reputation ("God Complex" some referees seem to inflict on the game!) over against player safety!:mad:
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Still not buying that this was just a "momentum" thing. If it was momentum, why didn't the kicker end up stumbling over the defender? That's what happens when you are moving forward (momentum) and your foot suddenly stops because it contacts something - you stumble over whatever it was...nope. This kid kicked the defender in the face and then started to walk away.
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re: God Complex...,
[email protected]I refer to such as a complex wherein one feels they can do no wrong therefore they can never accept responsibility and accountability that they were wrong about something. I see it at times in all of sports - particularly youth sports. I realize nobody wants a referee/umpire etc. that "flip/flops" his/her position on calls, but when the evidence is clear that a call was blown - own up instead of defending oneself at the expense of fair play. In this instance, even after seeing the video and what I believe was clear evidence of a flagrant foul, the officials for the game, the director of those officials (a gentleman who effusively claimed his professionalism: I have been in this position for over 5 years an active official for over 25 years and worked at just about every level of basketball you can conceive of - this would include International play, NCAA Division I (what I currently work), the NBA and other professional leagues. The reason I am giving you my five second resume is to lend some credence to what I can tell you about this video. The other point to outlining my own experience is I have watched video of other officials and myself for two decades and can break down tape with the best.), and the league director all continued to vehemently defend their interpretation of the play.
The following was the "expert's" take on the play: "The action which resulted in the injury to the player was a basketball play. The kick is not intentional which would explain why the offensive player was so adamant in denying he did it on purpose. If you are able to look at the footage again with fresh eyes I would contend that the offensive player didn't even realize he kicked the defender until afterwards (this is made clear by the body language of the offensive player and the fact he turns around coming back towards the defender to see what happened) I have viewed hundreds if not thousands of flagrant fouls - flagrant technicals and other unsportsmanlike acts - so I can tell you this with high certainty...When a player does what you contend in this case - a deliberate and intentional act they immediately walk away or stalk away from the the scene of the crime. They never come back to the player they just "fouled" unless it is to stand over them to further try and intimidate or taunt them, which I have witnessed very rarely. When a player throws a deliberate punch/elbow /kick to the head or some other blow with the express purpose of creating injury I have never seen one example in my own experience of the offender coming back to the point of the foul. As I mentioned they simply walk away. If you watch the video and use the either a slow motion function or pause button to "chop up" the action into a structured time sequence you will see the following...as #15 makes his move into the lane he is trying to force an offensive play on three defenders. Number #4 makes a legal play on the ball and is in the process of tying the ball up [we do end up with a jump ball being called] When #4 is already on the ground you can clearly see that #15 is grabbed (fouled actually) by his elbow by number #24 on the opposing team. It is this contact he is wrenching away from (ripping the ball) which creates the momentum and subsequent kick." To me, that's a "God complex!" It doesn't serve the good of the program, the officiating profession, the game of basketball and most importantly the boys who were playing - even the boy who committed the infraction. |
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Not buying it, ask Big Time if he thought the officials followed the proper held ball procedures. |
Sorry, lmfc...but I gotta disagree with you here. The person who sent you that email didn't agree with your opinion on the play and that makes you mad. But he does give you a very logical breakdown of what he sees in the video. You can disagree with him, but what he sent you is NOT a "god complex" response. A "god complex" response would be:
"Who do you think you are questioning my officials? Don't you ever bother me with this type of thing again." Disagreeing with you (and with my opinion of the play) does not equal a "god complex." I am starting to wonder if the defender who got kicked is maybe your son? Nephew? Cousin? |
I agree with BillyMac and the officiating director...I don't see this as anything more than a common foul. I do not think he kicked at the player on the floor. I think he was flailing around trying to get the ball free and the foot to the face was the unfortunate result. A foul, absolutely. Flagrant, I don't think so.
Heck, some might even make the argument that it should have been a block on the player that was on the floor since the player on the floor didn't have LGP (NCAA-M interpretation). ;) |
I think the reason A1 goes to check on the kicked player is that A1 realized how hard he had kicked him when his own foot got injured from the kick.
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The "God complex" guy's description of the action is exactly as I see it. The kick is a result of A1 twisting and trying to regain possession while being fouled from behind. And I'm guessing he gave his resume because his judgement/opinion on the matter was being questioned by the OP.
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I could be wrong, and maybe he quotes his resume to everyone who questions his judgment. That would make for some long games, though. |
What this kid did was wrong, in my opinion he definitely kicked AT the defender, but I don't think he MEANT to kick him in the face. In my opinion, he quickly realized what had happened and wanted to check and see if the defender was alright. He should be charged with a technical foul for the kicking action, but in my opinion that is all. It appears these are middle school aged kids, and where I would disagree with the league director/veteran official is in the fact that he suspects that kids this age would react to a situation like this in the same way that older players would. I don't think that's necessarily true. I suspect that the kid did learn a valuable lesson about keeping his cool on the floor and hopefully he and his parents write a letter of apology to the injured player. For the league director to act like there was NOTHING wrong, sounds like an excuse to not to have to deal with a bad situation.
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There are no single dead ball contact technical fouls in HS, we either ignore it or we have decisions to make. Quote:
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Tape dont lie (if you look at it honestly) Not to be too critical, but I still say the officials held ball officiating skills were MIA. |
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A lot of coaches and refs do not like to see/admit any play in basketball is deliberately dirty. I think it helps to have played and to have played recently to be able to differentiate between a deliberate attempt to trip, kick or any dirty play vs. those who have not played ever or in a long time. There are very few times a ballplayer does not know exactly what he is doing and when a ballplayer is really out of control it is obvious. There are people out there who do not believe Artest's elbow was intentional. There is always someone who disagrees no matter how obvious.
To me this play was obviously intentional. For whatever reason, the kid kicked the other kid on purpose. Maybe he regretted it, maybe not, but he purposely kicked the other kid and if I saw this I would throw him out. |
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Personally, I think bball IQ can be learned if an official never played. You've got to think, if 2 officials that began the craft on the same day, but 1 played (at high competitive level) & the other 1 didnt, the former would advance quicker due to his knowledge & understanding of the game. After all, how is a male virgin gonna tell another guy how to hit a womans G-Spot. IJS |
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These are at least as likely as quicker advancement because of some Tebowish intangibles that he gained from playing at a "high level." |
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Really? Just because his opinion is different than yours makes his opinion crap? Maybe this is that "god complex" from earlier in the thread... |
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While former players may very well be able to be good officials and potentially have a head start in some areas over those that didn't play, they are just as likely to make crappy officials. It is sort of like the "I used to be a ref" statement you get from some coaches. If what he said was any where near accurate, assignors would never want veteran officials because they were too far from having played. Last time I checked, assignors tend to prefer experienced officials over rookies who just finished playing. |
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He didn't trash anybody. He said "I THINK..." followed by his thoughts that being a player helps someone differentiate...you obviously got offended by that. Why? Who knows...but saying he trashed some group of people simply because you disagree with his thoughts on the matter? That's ridiculous. For the record, I disagree with his thoughts on the matter also...but that doesn't make his thoughts "crap". |
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Sure, it can help. But it doesn't establish the ceiling of how good an official can be...it just shifts the broad spectrum of the two overall groups relative to each other...but there is a dramatic amount of overlap in the ability levels and the best (and worst) can come from either group. It may shift the starting point such that former players may get a head start...but there is nothing they know that non-players can't learn. |
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Just wanted to bring this up again
To go back to my post on the second page of the thread: there's nothing in the NFHS definition of a flagrant foul which says the act has to be intentional. They are "...of a violent...nature" and involve "dead-ball contact...at any time which is extreme." The NCAA-W D-I official who sent those comments seems to have forgotten that aspect.
For that matter, there's nothing in the NCAA definition of a Flagrant 2 technical foul which says the act has to be intentional but at least NCAA gives the option of a contact dead ball technical if you don't feel the player should be ejected. |
To me, having watched this over and over at real speed and then frame by frame, at a minimum this is a dead ball contact foul every way I slice it. Even if, as some state, he was swinging his leg to get free of the other player, that doesn't give him free reign to swing it the way he wants without consequence. To me, that is not normal movement of his leg.
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