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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:45am
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Originally Posted by truerookie View Post
Yes, travel did not occur until after the hit on the arm. I tend to believe that if you did/do not call the travel why negate the foul called. Thus, count the basket.
I was not saying negate the foul, just asking if we should count the basket or not on this kind of play if the foul takes place? Then after the foul technically travels, do we count the basket? Or do we give 2 shots instead if the ball goes in anyway?

But it appears you got the gist of what I was saying.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:48am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I was not saying negate the foul, just asking if we should count the basket or not on this kind of play if the foul takes place? Then after the foul technically travels, do we count the basket? Or do we give 2 shots instead if the ball goes in anyway?

But it appears you got the gist of what I was saying.

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JRut,

I did get the gist. The point you brought up was valid too. Do we count or not count the basket if the travel occurs while in the act of shooting? Award two shots for the foul. These discussions are helpful..
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 11:23am
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Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
Eeek.

I've got a PC and two travels, even by NBE standards.
Well you're wrong on the first play. This is a blocking foul and this is an easy call under NBA rules (and is pretty damn close under NFHS/NCAA rules). A defender must allow a player who receives a pass outside the lower defensive box the opportunity to land and stop and/or change direction. The defender in the above play did not do that thus, he did not have a legal position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
PC, but I'm not 100% sure on the travel at the end of Lebron's drive. Remember that the NBA changed their traveling rule to allow 2 steps after establishing a pivot foot. That means (I think) that you can establish a pivot foot, step with the other foot (thus lifting the pivot) and then step again (placing the pivot back on the floor) and this is legal.

And I think that's what Lebron did at the end of that drive. It's hard to see exactly when he gathers the ball, but I think he only steps twice after gathering.
A player is allowed two steps after they've gathered the ball....not after they've established a pivot foot. The first step occurs after the player has gathered the ball and takes a step. So for example, a player gathers the ball with a left foot on the floor...step one occurs when he steps with the right foot...step two occurs when he steps with the left foot. In that case, the right foot is the pivot foot. And the first example, that would be a travel under NCAA/NFHS rules. Second example: Player gathers the ball with the left foot on the floor. Player steps with the right foot (step 1), then jumps off the right foot and lands simultaneously on both feet (considered step 2). This is a travel under NFHS/NCAA rules but a legal play under NBA rules (and the player wouldn't be able to pivot afterward). Third example...player gathers the ball with the left foot on the floor....he jumps off that left foot and lands on both feet simultaneously (considered step 1). Player is allowed to pivot here but wouldn't under NFHS/NCAA rules.

As to the second play, I have nothing at the beginning of the dribble. Player gathered the all with the left foot on the floor, steps with the right, the starts the dribble as the 2nd foot comes to the floor. I do have a travel at the end of the dribble though as I have the player gathering the ball in mid air, stepping with the right foot (step 1), stepping with the left foot (step 2), then stepping with the right again (step 3).
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Last edited by APG; Wed Apr 11, 2012 at 12:09pm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 11:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Wasn't he fouled? If he is fouled before he travels and it looks like that based on that would be the only contact that would negate any travel. They did not show the angle from the official's point of view so I am wondering how much of a foul it was, but it appears a foul was called in real time on the right arm while LeBron is in the act of shooting. It may have actually been a travel first, but it appears the call was about a foul as a result. What would have been a better question is should the basket could on a foul where the player "travels" after being fouled?

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Haven't we discussed this extensively; with the conclusion being that you wave off the score and award two shots?

The ball does not become dead on the foul if it's by the defense and the shooting motion has begun. It does, however, become dead when the offense commits a violation. Thus no basket, but two shots.
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Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:04pm
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No such rule in NFHS

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Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Well you're wrong on the first play. This is a blocking foul and this is an easy call under NBA rules (and is pretty damn close under NFHS/NCAA rules). A defender must allow a player who receives a pass outside the lower defensive block the opportunity to land and stop and/or change direction. The defender in the above play did not do that thus, he did not have a legal position.
In NFHS there is no rule specific to the lower defensive block. Also Wade wasn't in the air so there was no reason to give him a landing spot. He was running. A defender does not have to give a player any time or distance if the offensive player has the ball. Wade clearly was in possession. The defender had two feet on the floor with his torso facing Wade. Clearly he had LGP. PC in NFHS all the way.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Well you're wrong on the first play. This is a blocking foul and this is an easy call under NBA rules (and is pretty damn close under NFHS/NCAA rules). A defender must allow a player who receives a pass outside the lower defensive block the opportunity to land and stop and/or change direction. The defender in the above play did not do that thus, he did not have a legal position.
I did not know this rule exists in the NBA. The area works the same as a player giving one step on a screen. Would this be the same on a rebound as a pass?

Under NFHS/NCAA I have a PC foul.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:08pm
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Originally Posted by rwest View Post
In NFHS there is no rule specific to the lower defensive block. Also Wade wasn't in the air so there was no reason to give him a landing spot. He was running. A defender does not have to give a player any time or distance if the offensive player has the ball. Wade clearly was in possession. The defender had two feet on the floor with his torso facing Wade. Clearly he had LGP. PC in NFHS all the way.
I never said it wasn't a charge under NF/NCAA rules...I just said it was close...especially since people here were applying NFHS/NCAA rules to that play and thinking it was an obvious charge even by their "NBE" standards. And I meant to say lower defensive box rather than block...got ahead of myself.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:12pm
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Originally Posted by berserkBBK View Post
I did not know this rule exists in the NBA. The area works the same as a player giving one step on a screen. Would this be the same on a rebound as a pass?

Under NFHS/NCAA I have a PC foul.
Let me just clarify one point real quick...I meant to say lower defensive box rather than block...got ahead of myself as to what the correct call was on this play.

To your question, need a little bit more information...where did the play occur? Describe more aptly what happened before contact.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
I never said it wasn't a charge under NF/NCAA rules...I just said it was close...especially since people here were applying NFHS/NCAA rules to that play and thinking it was an obvious charge even by their "NBE" standards. And I meant to say lower defensive box rather than block...got ahead of myself.
defensive box meaning the defensive lane area?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:16pm
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Originally Posted by berserkBBK View Post
The area works the same as a player giving one step on a screen.
One step on a blind screen but even a screen in the FOV requires the screener to give the defense an opportunity to stop &/or change directions.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:24pm
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Originally Posted by berserkBBK View Post
defensive box meaning the defensive lane area?
The lower defensive box is an area in the frontcourt bound by the 3 foot marks on each side of the lane and the lower tip of the free throw circle. So in English haha:

There's a mark on the court, 3 feet outside each lane line. That's the outside edge of the lower defensive box. The top portion would be the lower part of the free throw circle (remember they have this because the NBA doesn't use the AP method).

The lower defensive box is important in determining whether the restricted area applies on a block/charge play and to whether a player has to afford a player who receives a pass an opportunity to stop and change direction.
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Last edited by APG; Wed Apr 11, 2012 at 09:02pm. Reason: grammar
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Well you're wrong on the first play. This is a blocking foul and this is an easy call under NBA rules (and is pretty damn close under NFHS/NCAA rules). A defender must allow a player who receives a pass outside the lower defensive box the opportunity to land and stop and/or change direction. The defender in the above play did not do that thus, he did not have a legal position.
Good to learn! Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
I never said it wasn't a charge under NF/NCAA rules...I just said it was close...especially since people here were applying NFHS/NCAA rules to that play and thinking it was an obvious charge even by their "NBE" standards. And I meant to say lower defensive box rather than block...got ahead of myself.
My "NBE standards" applied to the travel clip, not to the B/C clip. Perhaps my punctuation was in error.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
The lower defensive box is a area on the court bound by the 3 foot marks on each side of the lane and the lower tip of the free throw circle. So in English haha:

There's a mark on the court, 3 feet outside each lane line. That's the outside edge of the lower defensive box. The top portion would be the lower part of the free throw circle (remember they have this because the NBA doesn't use the AP method).

The lower defensive box is important in determining whether the restricted area applies on a block/charge play and to whether a player has to afford a player who receives a pass an opportunity to stop and change direction.
I think I got it, but just for the sake of easiness lets just say a defensive rebound occurs where the pass in the first play was made. Player turns takes a step and crashes into a player before the step was completed.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:52pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Haven't we discussed this extensively; with the conclusion being that you wave off the score and award two shots?

The ball does not become dead on the foul if it's by the defense and the shooting motion has begun. It does, however, become dead when the offense commits a violation. Thus no basket, but two shots.
Not sure I remember or were directly involved in those discussions here, but there are discussions I have had about this issue previously. But in this discussion people seem to be intent on that there was a travel and did not seem to focus on the foul that might have affected any travel being called. That is the only reason I pointed that out.

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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2012, 01:06pm
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Originally Posted by berserkBBK View Post
I think I got it, but just for the sake of easiness lets just say a defensive rebound occurs where the pass in the first play was made. Player turns takes a step and crashes into a player before the step was completed.
No time or distance is required to be given to a dribbler when trying to get in a legal position. Strictly speaking, if the player got the ball on the run, then no time or distance is required to be given. If the player jumps to grab the ball, then a defensive player must allow airborne players outside the LDB to land and stop/change direction.
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