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twocentsworth Mon Apr 09, 2012 09:02am

Anyone an "ESPN.com Insider"?
 
Jay Bilas has a blog entitled: "Ideas on how to fix officiating" that is posted on espn.com. Only those who are "espn.com insiders" can view the whole post.....

If you are an "insider" can you post the remainder of the article? Curious to see what his thoughts/remedies are to "fix officiating"......

Here's the publicly available excerpt:

Ideas on how to improve college basketball officiating - ESPN

APG Mon Apr 09, 2012 09:38am

I'm not sure of the legality of posting the entire article...but I'll post the relevant bits...

ballgame99 Mon Apr 09, 2012 09:53am

Quote from the article "There are far too many charges awarded to help defenders, and most of the charge/block calls you see are simply wrongly decided by officials. It is out of control, and I have not heard any coaches disagree with that assertion. The charge call has become a major problem in college basketball, and it needs to be addressed with all deliberate speed."

The only way I can see fixing this one is changing the rule to say that the defender must have LGP before the offensive player goes into their shooting motion (ie gathers). This would reduce a lot of the help-side charges that most people have issues with.

ballgame99 Mon Apr 09, 2012 09:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 836475)
I'm not sure of the legality of posting the entire article...but I'll post the relevant bits...

Just paraphrase his points, that would give us the jyst.

Adam Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 836479)
Quote from the article "There are far too many charges awarded to help defenders, and most of the charge/block calls you see are simply wrongly decided by officials. It is out of control, and I have not heard any coaches disagree with that assertion. The charge call has become a major problem in college basketball, and it needs to be addressed with all deliberate speed."

The only way I can see fixing this one is changing the rule to say that the defender must have LGP before the offensive player goes into their shooting motion (ie gathers). This would reduce a lot of the help-side charges that most people have issues with.

No, that would only lead to more block calls, and there would be just as many close ones. It's just like adding 4 teams to the tournament. You've got the same debates, just moved down a rung.

And I frankly am more interested in what John Adams thinks about the block charge calls made in NCAA games than in what Jay Bilas thinks. To claim "most block charge calls" are wrongly decided is stupid.

APG Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:08am

I'll list the big points and summary

-Freedom of movement: NCAA needs to be more focused on "freedom of movement" like the NBA went to a while back...too much bumping and impeding off ball. Part of the blame is with coaches but officials are the last line of defense

-Protect the shooter: Defenders are vertical up top, but bodying down low

-Lose the overly demonstrative gestures and gyrations: Too many officials are overly demonstrative on calls (including charges, bird dogging, out of bounds). Thinks a lot of officials are looking more and more like clowns with the actions

-Negative influence of coaches: too much negative interactions with officials...we don't allow players to do so, yet for some reason we allow coaches to go off the handle. Mandates to whack and toss (if needed) needs to occur

Next he goes into rules changes...

-Block/charge: Too many charge calls (that in his opinion) are called incorrectly. Two changes he suggests...LGP can only be obtained by a player who can get a count (his words)...so basically 6 feet. Also wants to change the deciding point for when a defender is too late...wants the shooter protected once he's committed to leaving the floor. If the defender is there after that point, it's a block and only clear and obvious plays would be charges...if any doubt, it's a block

-Goaltending/BI: Wants to basically change the rule to the NBA version...wouldn't matter if the ball is ball is above/below the rim and hit the backboard (basically, the only time it's not a goaltend in the NBA is if the ball is contacted below the level of the rim, on its downward motion)

-Lane violations: If the free throw is made, ignore...for both teams. If either team violates, they're awarded possession. So if the defense violates, instead of a substitute free throw, they're awarded the ball OOB. His thinking is you possibly deprived the offense of an offensive rebound and possible 2/3 pointer.

-Timeouts: Too many timeouts...college needed to revamp their media timeout system. Suggests eliminating use it or lose it TO...reduce the number of TO with all the media ones. Also suggests that only players on the court be allowed to call TO...also suggests that the scoring team not be allowed to call a TO after a made basket. Suggests the timeouts only be granted when there's a dead ball (a la FIBA). Finally, suggests that the 10 second count doesn't reset when a team calls a timeout.

JetMetFan Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:10am

Here's part of what he says...this is available regardless of whether you're a paying customer:

Quote:

I believe the manner in which the game is officiated is the primary culprit for the decline in the game's quality.

Officials blame coaches who teach techniques that are contrary to the rules, and many coaches are indeed doing that. But the officials are the last line of defense in protecting the game. If a coach teaches a technique that is a foul or a violation, it is up to the officials to call that foul. Period. The only way to stop players from fouling or violating rules is to call the fouls and violations. When violations and fouls are called, players and coaches will stop doing it. Why? Players and coaches want to win and want to keep the best players on the floor.
He's already contradicting himself. The only way to stop players from commiting fouls/violations is to call them, yet officials are calling too many charging/PC fouls? Not running over opponents or learning how to shoot pull-up or mid-range jumpers will solve that issue pretty fast.

APG Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:31am

I actually agree with some of the points and suggestions Mr. Bilas talked about.

JetMetFan Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:31am

Quote:

-Freedom of movement: NCAA needs to be more focused on "freedom of movement like the NBA went to a while back...too much bumping and impeding off ball. Part of the blame is with coaches but officials are the last line of defense
This seems to be a POE every year. I hate to admit he's right on this one but he is.

Quote:

-Protect the shooter: Defenders are vertical up top, but bodying down low
I haven't noticed this to be a huge problem.

Quote:

-Lose the overly demonstrative gestures and gyrations: Too many officials are overly demonstrative on calls (including charges, bird dogging, out of bounds). Thinks a lot of officials are looking more and more like clowns with the actions
To each his own. It's generally the older guys who do it or when guys are selling a call.

Quote:

-Negative influence of coaches: too much negative interactions with officials...we don't allow players to do so, yet for some reason we allow coaches to go off the handle. Mandates to whack and toss (if needed) needs to occur
Yet another annual or semi-annual POE.

Quote:

-Block/charge: Too many charge calls (that in his opinion) are called incorrectly. Two changes he suggests...LGP can only be obtained by a player who can get a count (his words)...so basically 6 feet. Also wants to change the deciding point for when a defender is too late...wants the shooter protected once he's committed to leaving the floor. If the defender is there after that point, it's a block and only clear and obvious plays would be charges...if any doubt, it's a block
So he wants a kid who beats his/her defender to basically have a clear path to the hoop? Again, shooting pull-up or mid-range jumpers clears this up. Plus, if he thinks there are issues now try changing things so officials have to determine when a shooter has committed to leaving the floor.


Quote:

-Goaltending/BI: Wants to basically change the rule to the NBA version...wouldn't matter if the ball is ball is above/below the rim and hit the backboard (basically, the only time it's not a goaltend in the NBA is if the ball is contacted below the level of the rim, on its downward motion)
Has this really been a huge issue? I can't really see how this would add that much scoring to the game.

Quote:

-Lane violations: If the free throw is made, ignore...for both teams. If either team violates, they're awarded possession. So if the defense violates, instead of a substitute free throw, they're awarded the ball OOB. His thinking is you possibly deprived the offense of an offensive rebound and possible 2/3 pointer.
Giving the ball back to the offense after a violation - as opposed to the substitute FT - doesn't exactly guarantee that the offense is going to get any points from the deal.

Quote:

-Timeouts: Too many timeouts...college needed to revamp their media timeout system. Suggests eliminating use it or lose it TO...reduce the number of TO with all the media ones. Also suggests that only players on the court be allowed to call TO...also suggests that the scoring team not be allowed to call a TO after a made basket. Suggests the timeouts only be granted when there's a dead ball (a la FIBA). Finally, suggests that the 10 second count doesn't reset when a team calls a timeout.
He can discuss that one with his bosses at ESPN.

I get it - he wants the NCAA game to be more like the pro game. What he forgets as someone who went to a BCS school is 95% of the players in college basketball are not going to go pro because they don't have the ability. The rules have to apply to the majority of players so they can compete. The better players can adjust no matter what.

APG Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:59am

Points I agreed with:

Freedom of movement: Definitely agree with this...and it's something that needs to be worked on at all levels. I think the problem with this at the college level, is the inconsistency. In one conference, FOM seems to be highly enforced...whilst in another conference, it's deemed incidental contact. Officials have many more hats they have to answer to at the collegiate level (and this was actually one of Bilas points at the beginning of the article which anyone can read)...rather than having direction from one ultimate authority.

Demonstrative: ABSOLUTELY AGREE...some of this stuff is theatrical...calls sometimes need to be sold...but that kind of loses it means when you see it on every, single play. No need to bird dog when everyone in the stadium knows whom the foul was on.

Coach's decorum: Gotta agree with Bilas...if some of these college coaches tried the crap they do at the next level, they'd get whacked early and often.

Timeouts: Definitely need to change the amount of timeouts given to coaches since media timeouts (at the highest levels) aren't going to be given up. It's absolutely silly that a coach can a timeout at 15:59, come back from that timeout, inbound the ball, ball goes OOB, then we get a MEDIA timeout. And this happens all the time. NCAA DI basketball is rivaling the NFL sometimes with their timeouts (Quick did you know...in an NFL games, there must be FIVE TV timeouts...per quarter!) I also agree that the 10 second count should not reset with a called timeout.

Lane violations: I don't know if I would go with awarding the ball rather than the sub FT, but I agree...made free throw, no violations period...both ways.

doubleringer Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 836479)
Quote from the article "There are far too many charges awarded to help defenders, and most of the charge/block calls you see are simply wrongly decided by officials. It is out of control, and I have not heard any coaches disagree with that assertion. The charge call has become a major problem in college basketball, and it needs to be addressed with all deliberate speed."

The only way I can see fixing this one is changing the rule to say that the defender must have LGP before the offensive player goes into their shooting motion (ie gathers). This would reduce a lot of the help-side charges that most people have issues with.

I've heard a lot about the block/charge in college basketball recently, and I am of the opinion that it isn't the way this play is being called, it is the lack of movement on the part of the players. I actually had this conversation with a very successful JUCO coach, and he is not a fan of the "4 out" offenses that many teams run, where basically you drive the ball at the basket, and kick the ball out or take it to the rim. It is his contention that it isn't fair to officials because it basically forces us to affect the game by either calling the block, charge, or deciding the contact was incidental. Most assignors want a whistle of some sort on this type of contact, so we are seeing more block/charge calls.

Since the game is played more and more at the rim or beyond the 3 point arc, we have to make more decisions on the block/charge than ever before. Compound that with coaches who teach taking the charge (commonly referred to as the flop :D) and we are making this decision very often. Thoughts?

Scrapper1 Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:09am

I heard a recent interview with John Adams (might have been during the tournament) in which he said that he thought there were too many charges being called. So that's probably where Bilas got that piece of ammo.

I personally disagree with their assessment.

Adam Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:10am

I disagree with making the 10 second count more like FIBA. There are only so many timeouts per game, so I have no problem with coaches who want to use them to avoid a 10 second count. It's just like avoiding a second throw in count, or avoiding a held ball, or an OOB violation. It's not really a problem, and it happens at most once per game, IMO.

As for the timeouts, that's the price of all that TV coverage we get; and the price of the replay reviews, for that matter.

Scrapper1 Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 836501)

Coach's decorum: Gotta agree with Bilas...if some of these college coaches tried the crap they do at the next level, they'd get whacked early and often.

But we know why this is. Assignors work for the coaches. If officials T up the coaches, the coaches complain to the assignor. Assignor decides he doesn't need the headache and the official's schedule suffers.

Since nobody wants to lose games because of a coach's complaints, fewer T's are called, even though everyone (including the officials on the games) knows that they are deserved.

APG Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 836504)
I disagree with making the 10 second count more like FIBA. There are only so many timeouts per game, so I have no problem with coaches who want to use them to avoid a 10 second count. It's just like avoiding a second throw in count, or avoiding a held ball, or an OOB violation. It's not really a problem, and it happens at most once per game, IMO.

As for the timeouts, that's the price of all that TV coverage we get; and the price of the replay reviews, for that matter.

I just think that if you play defense well enough to hold them in the backcourt for nearly 10 seconds, the offense shouldn't be able to buy themselves out of a timeout. And as it is now in NCAA...timeouts aren't as valuable as it isn't rare to see a team with 3-4 timeouts left at the end of games. The NBA has this right.

And as far the amount of timeouts, just reduce the number of timeouts coaches can have...or if a coach calls a timeout at a media timeout threshold, charge him his timeout, and make it a media length timeout.

APG Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 836505)
But we know why this is. Assignors work for the coaches. If officials T up the coaches, the coaches complain to the assignor. Assignor decides he doesn't need the headache and the official's schedule suffers.

Since nobody wants to lose games because of a coach's complaints, fewer T's are called, even though everyone (including the officials on the games) knows that they are deserved.

I agree...and Bilas actually mentions this in the beginning of the article.

Quote:

Why? College basketball officials are independent contractors and are therefore not employees who can be mandated to call games according to certain, strict guidelines. (Don't ask me the logic of how NCAA member institutions can pay "independent contractors" so much money to run on the floor with their "amateurs" and still claim they cannot provide compensation to the players or they will be "employees.") Officials are accountable to a degree but are not totally accountable, as are NBA or NFL officials. College officials are subject to some very real criticism from powerful coaches, both on the sidelines and in direct communication between supervisors and coaches. And the officials are often hamstrung by rules that are antiquated and make no logical sense.

Adam Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 836506)
I just think that if you play defense well enough to hold them in the backcourt for nearly 10 seconds, the offense shouldn't be able to buy themselves out of a timeout. And as it is now in NCAA...timeouts aren't as valuable as it isn't rare to see a team with 3-4 timeouts left at the end of games. The NBA has this right.

And as far the amount of timeouts, just reduce the number of timeouts coaches can have...or if a coach calls a timeout at a media timeout threshold, charge him his timeout, and make it a media length timeout.

The ten second issue would be solved by Bilas' suggestion to have timeouts granted like in FIBA; through the table. Or, to be honest, taking away the ability for coaches to request a timeout during a live ball would reduce this, too. Again, though, it's not a common problem so I don't see much of a need to make the change.

I could see them adjusting the media timeout situation so that there's a set amount of scheduled media time per game.

truerookie Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:39am

-Freedom of movement: NCAA needs to be more focused on "freedom of movement" like the NBA went to a while back...too much bumping and impeding off ball. Part of the blame is with coaches but officials are the last line of defense

I agree freedom of movement is an issue.

-Protect the shooter: Defenders are vertical up top, but bodying down low

You do see this a little in the game. Lower body contact with arms straight up in the air. It is not call as often as it should be.

-Lose the overly demonstrative gestures and gyrations: Too many officials are overly demonstrative on calls (including charges, bird dogging, out of bounds). Thinks a lot of officials are looking more and more like clowns with the actions

At this level, its about getting the calls right. The problem is some lower level officials see this and thinks it is ok to do it at lower level.

-Negative influence of coaches: too much negative interactions with officials...we don't allow players to do so, yet for some reason we allow coaches to go off the handle. Mandates to whack and toss (if needed) needs to occur

This is an assignor issue. What I have observed is the more established (successful) coaches will get a ton of rope.

JRutledge Mon Apr 09, 2012 01:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 836506)
I just think that if you play defense well enough to hold them in the backcourt for nearly 10 seconds, the offense shouldn't be able to buy themselves out of a timeout. And as it is now in NCAA...timeouts aren't as valuable as it isn't rare to see a team with 3-4 timeouts left at the end of games. The NBA has this right.

First of all this does not happen enough to even be an issue at the college level. Secondly the NBA is a different game with different ability of players. I think this would be a terrible rule for the college ranks.

Peace

APG Mon Apr 09, 2012 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 836531)
First of all this does not happen enough to even be an issue at the college level. Secondly the NBA is a different game with different ability of players. I think this would be a terrible rule for the college ranks.

Peace

I have a hard time seeing how this rule has to do anything with the abilities of the players.

Tio Mon Apr 09, 2012 01:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 836503)
I heard a recent interview with John Adams (might have been during the tournament) in which he said that he thought there were too many charges being called. So that's probably where Bilas got that piece of ammo.

I personally disagree with their assessment.

Without reviewing every block/charge play and judging on the same criteria to determine correct call/incorrect call, it is difficult to validate the merits of this argument.

However, I as a whole, I think we could do a better job in the following areas:

+ Officials are often misapplying the restricted area rule. Often demonstrating a restricted area mechanic on plays not in the restricted area.

+ Officials are not correctly refereeing whether a player was inside the restricted area (I have seen many calls go incorrectly both ways).

+ Secondary defenders are not picked up and are still laterally sliding underneath an airborne shooter - makes me question whether the official is refereeing the defense.

This is obviously a new rule and I fully expect us to learn and become more experienced as it becomes a regular part of our game. I also see teams adjusting and trying to take fewer charges a la the NBA. There is a reason these calls are the hardest in the game IMO.

JRutledge Mon Apr 09, 2012 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 836534)
I have a hard time seeing how this rule has to do anything with the abilities of the players.

I do not see why the NBA has this right either. And pros have rules that apply to the talent of their players as well, which is why for example they do not have zone defense without the possibility of a defensive 3 seconds call. Some things need to stay at the pro level and this is one of those levels that need to stay there. We allow timeouts for other saving violations, why not this one?

Peace

APG Mon Apr 09, 2012 02:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 836544)
I do not see why the NBA has this right either. And pros have rules that apply to the talent of their players as well, which is why for example they do not have zone defense without the possibility of a defensive 3 seconds call. Some things need to stay at the pro level and this is one of those levels that need to stay there. We allow timeouts for other saving violations, why not this one?

Peace

I'm not saying the college game needs to adopt defensive three-second violations. Hell, they've already added what previously was one of the biggest rules difference between the two codes. :p

The only thing I would like to see them adopt is not having the backcourt count start over if a team calls a TO (and to extend that, if the ball goes OOB). I believe it's also how FIBA handles this as well.

It's not that huge of a deal either way...just addressing it since Bilas brought it up the article

JetMetFan Mon Apr 09, 2012 03:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 836506)
I just think that if you play defense well enough to hold them in the backcourt for nearly 10 seconds, the offense shouldn't be able to buy themselves out of a timeout. And as it is now in NCAA...timeouts aren't as valuable as it isn't rare to see a team with 3-4 timeouts left at the end of games. The NBA has this right.

APG, for me this is one of those situations where it's important to remember the rule book applies to more than the ACC, Big 10, Big East, etc. Is some low-level Div. 3 team going to be able to get the ball into frontcourt in 2 seconds after calling a time out when the count is at 8? There are just some things college players can't do which pros can, if only because of practice time.

Having to burn a time out seems like more than enough of a penalty for the offense.

Camron Rust Mon Apr 09, 2012 05:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 836560)
APG, for me this is one of those situations where it's important to remember the rule book applies to more than the ACC, Big 10, Big East, etc. Is some low-level Div. 3 team going to be able to get the ball into frontcourt in 2 seconds after calling a time out when the count is at 8? There are just some things college players can't do which pros can, if only because of practice time.

Having to burn a time out seems like more than enough of a penalty for the offense.

I just don't see this as a problem worth wasting time on. How may backcourt timeouts get called? Not very many. You could certainly argue whether the team deserves the count to be restarted or not vs. the price of a timeout.....but it will not materially affect 90+% of the games.

APG Mon Apr 09, 2012 06:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 836560)
APG, for me this is one of those situations where it's important to remember the rule book applies to more than the ACC, Big 10, Big East, etc. Is some low-level Div. 3 team going to be able to get the ball into frontcourt in 2 seconds after calling a time out when the count is at 8? There are just some things college players can't do which pros can, if only because of practice time.

Having to burn a time out seems like more than enough of a penalty for the offense.

You see, I don't see it as a problem if a team has only 2 seconds to advance it after a timeout...no matter the level. Because more likely than not, the defense forced them to waste those 8 seconds. And they're being rewarded for it. Plus, this is how the FIBA rule is (as far as the count not resetting if for instance, the ball goes OOB).

Camron Rust Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 836583)
You see, I don't see it as a problem if a team has only 2 seconds to advance it after a timeout...no matter the level. Because more likely than not, the defense forced them to waste those 8 seconds. And they're being rewarded for it. Plus, this is how the FIBA rule is (as far as the count not resetting if for instance, the ball goes OOB).

I think the defense's reward is forcing the team to consume one of their timeouts.

And in NCAA rules with a shot clock, the shot clock doesn't reset so the real need for the 10 second count doesn't really even exist. The purpose of the 10 second count and the backcourt rule is to ensure that the offensive team doesn't have use of the entire court indefinitely (remember these both pre-dated the shot clock). With a shot clock, the duration that the offense has is already limited. They're not going to want to stay in the backcourt very long in any case.

IIRC, women's NCAA rules don't even have a backcourt count of any length.


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