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-   -   Call on the court = Play on. Doris Burke agreed. What's your opinion? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/90456-call-court-play-doris-burke-agreed-whats-your-opinion.html)

JetMetFan Fri Apr 06, 2012 07:50am

Call on the court = Play on. Doris Burke agreed :) What's your opinion?
 
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StlCards Fri Apr 06, 2012 08:09am

Looks like a charge. Defender doesn't do anything wrong.

truerookie Fri Apr 06, 2012 08:27am

No problem with the playon here. The defender clearly leans( surpasses verticality) into the path of the ball handler after she is airborne.

The question I have is. Where is the T?

Toren Fri Apr 06, 2012 09:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by truerookie (Post 836050)
No problem with the playon here. The defender clearly leans( surpasses verticality) into the path of the ball handler after she is airborne.

The question I have is. Where is the T?

I agree with your statement that this would have been a block since defender leans forward.

High Altitude got the T bending over full court, huffing and puffing. :D

Jeremy Hohn Fri Apr 06, 2012 09:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by truerookie (Post 836050)
No problem with the playon here. The defender clearly leans( surpasses verticality) into the path of the ball handler after she is airborne.

The question I have is. Where is the T?

Agreed. If the Defensive player hadn't advanced her position, the offense had already stopped her momentum and their would have been no collision.

Adam Fri Apr 06, 2012 09:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toren (Post 836059)
I agree with your statement that this would have been a block since defender leans forward.

High Altitude got the T bending over full court, huffing and puffing. :D

The first time I saw it, I had a PC. The second time, I had a PC. The third time, I had a PC. Yeah, the defender leans a little to brace for contact, but she doesn't create any contact that wasn't happening anyway.

Now, after seeing it in slow motion a few times, I changed my mind. The defender's lean creates contact. Had she remained vertical, the shooter would have landed short of contact, IMO.

I'd like to think I would got it right on the court, but I don't know.

I don't give a rats a$$ what Burke thinks, though.

Altitude? In Denver? Pshaw!

tref Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:26am

Cant say that I liked the no call as the defender clearly (obvious) leans forward into the shooter.
As I look deeper at the "whys" I can understand the no call.
Steal in the b/c probably has the old new L (now the new T) somewhere around the division line.
Tough to get back when busting it to the other end that quickly!
The C has no look whatsoever & the L is set up good for lateral movement.
Good discipline by the crew.

Toren Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:56am

Who is Doris Burke? Is that someone who I should know?

Camron Rust Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:54am

Defender does lean forward to create what is really minor contact but does not disadvantage the shooter in any way....no call OK, but a block would be OK too.

JRutledge Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:22pm

The defender never stops coming forward. I have a block, but I do not think on this kind of play you can have a no-call. And I am a person that usually judges these plays as charges as a default, but the defender clearly did not stop coming forward from this angle.

Peace

tref Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 836111)
The defender never stops coming forward. I have a block, but I do not think on this kind of play you can have a no-call. And I am a person that usually judges these plays as charges as a default, but the defender clearly did not stop coming forward from this angle.

Peace

With the pictures given, who makes the call?

Welpe Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:29pm

I think I'd go with a block here but could see a no call.

Bad Zebra Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:41pm

I like the no-call here. Defender leaned out of vertical plane to create contact. The L seems to have best view and positioning here. If she saw the lean and opted to pass on the whistle, that's a pretty good piece of officiating IMHO.

P.S. Whatever Doris Burke says...the opposite is usually true. I'd like to watch a game with her and Clark Kellog doing commentary. They could conceivably get EVERY whistle wrong between the two of them.

JugglingReferee Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:46pm

This is a no-call or a block.

I don't like these types of leans, so I tend to call a block. But at the higher levels, this is easily a no-call.

JRutledge Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 836112)
With the pictures given, who makes the call?

The Lead or the Center could call this. The Trail could but they are probably too far as it seems like a quick change or transition.

Peace

truerookie Fri Apr 06, 2012 01:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 836118)
The Lead or the Center could call this. The Trail could but they are probably too far as it seems like a quick change or transition.

Peace

I can agree the Lead or Center should/could call this. I would give Lead first crack at it since it was a secondary defender stepping up to take the contact..

fullor30 Fri Apr 06, 2012 02:08pm

Pretty easy block from my video view, I'm calling it

Jeremy Hohn Fri Apr 06, 2012 02:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by truerookie (Post 836132)
I can agree the Lead or Center should/could call this. I would give Lead first crack at it since it was a secondary defender stepping up to take the contact..


Lead wouldn't see the angle of the defender on this play. C has the open look. On plays like this in women's floor coverage, this is a C play to judge.

truerookie Fri Apr 06, 2012 03:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hohn (Post 836136)
Lead wouldn't see the angle of the defender on this play. C has the open look. On plays like this in women's floor coverage, this is a C play to judge.

Is that exclusive or inclusive? The secondary defend steps into the dual coverage area from the Lead half of the court. Since open looks are being discussed. The C doesn't have a good look at the play. From her current position appears to be straight lined as it is being finished at the rim. I would have liked to see the Center take a couple of steps toward the endline. This would have opened the look up more.

tref Fri Apr 06, 2012 03:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hohn (Post 836136)
Lead wouldn't see the angle of the defender on this play. C has the open look. On plays like this in women's floor coverage, this is a C play to judge.

Agreed, the L can see the lateral movement, but not verticality. L should not make a call here, just like they shouldn't call rebounding fouls from behind. Same principle.
Although the C didnt position adjust, I thought the C had the best opportunity here as the T isnt in the screen shot.

JRutledge Fri Apr 06, 2012 03:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hohn (Post 836136)
Lead wouldn't see the angle of the defender on this play. C has the open look. On plays like this in women's floor coverage, this is a C play to judge.

Maybe that is why they get so many plays wrong then IMO? It seems they are trying to fit a coverage area into a game that does not suit their game in the first place.

Peace

MD Longhorn Fri Apr 06, 2012 03:42pm

I'm ok with the no call - mostly because the block did not affect the shot at all - but I would be ok with block too, as the defender never stops moving forward. Definitely not a charge.

tref Fri Apr 06, 2012 03:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 836155)
I'm ok with the no call - mostly because the block did not affect the shot at all - but I would be ok with block too, as the defender never stops moving forward. Definitely not a charge.

I think a block would've been called if the T got back & had the same look we have.

JRutledge Fri Apr 06, 2012 04:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 836155)
I'm ok with the no call - mostly because the block did not affect the shot at all - but I would be ok with block too, as the defender never stops moving forward. Definitely not a charge.

The contact still affected the movement both players. I think you have to call something there. Part of the reason they put that restricted area on the floor in the first place was to have these kinds of plays be called.

Peace

twocentsworth Fri Apr 06, 2012 05:43pm

this is a foul on the offensive player....

I will give a "pass" to the Lead on this one..(wink, wink, nod, nod)...it was hard for her to see the play as she was watching the flight of the ball!!!!!

she must be related to Ed Hightower.....

BillyMac Fri Apr 06, 2012 06:41pm

Lean On Me ...
 
Block. The defender moves forward.

BktBallRef Fri Apr 06, 2012 06:52pm

Do you call three seconds from the T?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 836157)
I think a block would've been called if the T got back & had the same look we have.

Why in hell would the T have a whistle on this play?

The drive originates in the C's PCA.

The collision is in the middle of the lane.

There is no part of this play that the T has any business blowing.

It's the L or C's call all the way.

HawkeyeCubP Fri Apr 06, 2012 09:24pm

The C should'n't have been so happy with the spot their feet were planted after getting back to the starting area after the turnover when the drive started. The C should've been moving with the drive (some way to see an angle on this secondary defender play).

The T isn't at any kind of fault here. This was a turnover in transition with the ball not even getting to the division line. They were doing their job getting down court, and the drive happened immediately after the turnover.

The L, due to pinching and thinking about starting a rotation because of where the new offensive player is (and is looking like driving) - all correct things to think and do, IMO (maybe wait just a beat longer in case they do/did drive immediately), gets herself straightlined by bad luck here, and can't see (well) the defender moving toward the shooter.

This would've been a great C call. And I have a block.

Caesar's Ghost Sat Apr 07, 2012 09:59am

I agree with the no call, but there should have been a travel first.

JetMetFan Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:29am

Travel?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caesar's Ghost (Post 836253)
I agree with the no call, but there should have been a travel first.

No travel there. She gathered the ball with both feet in the air then her right foot (pivot) came down and she took off from her left foot.

BktBallRef Sat Apr 07, 2012 04:59pm

Not even close to being a travel.

APG Sat Apr 07, 2012 05:11pm

There's no travel there

Caesar's Ghost Sat Apr 07, 2012 09:14pm

When she gathers at the 12 second mark her left foot is on the floor. It touches again.

JRutledge Sat Apr 07, 2012 09:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caesar's Ghost (Post 836314)
When she gathers at the 12 second mark her left foot is on the floor. It touches again.

Forgive me, but I do not know what you are watching. Gather does not mean the minute you stop dribbling. The left foot is clearly coming off the floor when the ball is just beginning to be gathered. And both feet are off the floor with both hands touch the ball. And you have to look for a slowed down version even to decide if the foot is on or off the floor. That would be a terrible call to make and it was not a travel. If that is a travel every layup is a travel.

Peace


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