Video: Not a travel in NBA, but would you call this a travel in HS or NCAA
 

How many would call this travel in HS or NCAA??
not a travel in NBA : after ball gathered in NBA you get 2 steps

Bynum Travel for Lakers basketball - YouTube

I call this every time I spot it.

I would not call that, especially when I see it at full speed.

That is not a travel at any level, let alone HS or college. Touching the ball does not constitute possession.

Peace

A whistle on this play is a "game interrupter".

I can understand the idea behind not calling this (particularly at full speed), but "touching"? He catches it with two hands, right foot on the floor, as he's walking. That's his pivot foot (in NFHS and NCAA) now, but he proceeds to lift it and put it back down in a step to gather for a shot. How is that not a travel, by rule?

Not here it's not. Now, if it's close (and this may be close enough at full speed that it's hard to tell where his right foot is when he catches the ball), that's different.

This is a travel. The left foot touches the floor after possession is gained, thereby establishing the right foot as the pivot foot. When the right foot touches the floor at a new point of contact before the release for shot, it is a travel.

Around here, we call it "gamus interruptus". :cool:

If I have to look at slow motion replay to determine when he had the ball, then this would not be a good call to make. This is not about the NBA or any other level, I am not calling it that close ever at any game with any kind of players on the floor. We do not call these just by rule, we call them by judgment as well. I am not confident he had full possession of the ball when the foot was on the floor.

Peace

It's a ticky-tack call.

Not the same as the crow hop or quick shuffle where a player tries to re-establish their feet because they're used to shooting with the same foot forward, etc.

Not doing it to gain an advantage, avoid a defender, or improve position.

Pass.

He uses that step to get into closer position for a three point shot, having his comfort foot forward for the shot. Not an advantage?

Ok.

How is it different from the "crow hop" as you call it??? Both are designed to get the shooter's feet set so they can be in their normal shooting motion, thus both are giving the shooter an advantage that he should not have because he violated the rules.

To call this a ticky tack call but imply that the crow hop is a good call makes absolutely no sense.

Absolute travel at HS and NCAA. It really isn't that close. (NBA, I don't have an opinion, not sure what their rule is and don't care to look it up).

At full speed, it may or may not be "easy" to tell, but it was a travel and it isn't really that hard to tell if you look at it...and video backs it up and shows it wasn't really that close at all. He caught the ball as the right foot came down and the left foot was being lifted, he then stepped forward with the left foot making the right the pivot, then again with the right foot (becoming a travel when it touched).

This gave him a 2+ foot shorter shot and most definitely improved his situation.

For anyone that says it wasn't "much" of a travel, how much is too much? If you can tell he did but it was close, that is no reason to not call it. We're paid to decide if they did or did not travel. We're supposed to interrupt the game when a player infringes on the rules. If they wanted the travel call to allow an extra step, they'd write it that way.

If that is true, I don't think he had full possession at anytime during that game. :eek::p

Saying he didn't have "full possession" is just a convenient cop out to avoid making the call. The instant he has 2 hands on the ball (and the ball doesn't subsequently shift from that position) he had possession (was holding the ball). That point occurred practically the instant he touched the ball.

OP is right that this is not a travel under NBA rules

With the benefit of this being slowed down, yes it's a travel under NF/NCAA rules...probably wouldn't look that obvious in real time.

The camera angle is away (or blocks the view) from his hands or the ball, so to say with clarity he has possession is kind of silly when you cannot really see the ball. Also I want clear possession, not what I think is possession or assume there is possession. I guess as a football official I do not consider possession until they bring the ball into their body and that was not clear on this tape even at slow motion. And having seen enough basketball over the years players do not always cleanly catch the ball. I have a HS tape of a game at our state finals (I may post it now) where a player brings the ball in and it is debatable if possession takes place with the foot on the floor. And every time I have showed this tape there is a lot of debate.

Peace

This is clearly a travel by HS standards. The NBA is about entertainment first, rules second. Hence being called the NBE.

Sadly, at least in regards to travel calls, the NCAA is going more towards the NBA philosophy. In the tournament games I watched, I saw a valid travel situation nearly every trip down the court, especially on wing play. Example, player catches a pass in the air, comes down on one foot then the other, and it seem like 75% of the time the player uses the second foot down as the pivot and it's seldom called. Game interrupter, maybe. But what's the purpose of having the rule in the book if it isn't enforced?

It's a good thing the NBA official followed the rule here.

And should I assume you'll be calling NCAA men's basketball, NCAAE, since as you put it, you saw a valid travel situation every trip down the court? I mean they've also added the RA as well as some other absolutes that mimic some NBA philosophies.

No it does not. I can see the ball clearly the whole time in that video. At most 20% of the ball might be obscured for a moment, but no where near enough to make it hard to tell if he caught it or not. It really isn't that hard to tell he had full and clear control of the ball.

That might be true in football, but this is not football. Player don't tuck the ball up to the body in basketball so applying a football philosophy really doesn't fit.

In basketball, if they have it between their hands, it is possession. You might wait a moment to ensure it doesn't move to confirm it was possession, but the possession begins the moment the ball is in their hands, not brought into their body.

Sure, but that is not what happened in this video. From the moment it got to his hands, the ball was solidly controlled.

Never seem to hear much complaining about all the things let go at the college level for sure.

Peace

I'm not the one that coined the acronym NBE, but it does fit. Like many others on this board, I think NBA games are un-watchable I guess that's from the viewpoint of a basketball traditionalist.

I still have hope for the NCAA, for now. I'll be seeing a few D1 officials this summer and I'm going to seek their opinions in regards to the travel philosophy within the conferences they work, etc.

We will just have to disagree on this point. I see a ball on the other side of Bynam's body and no clear vision of how or when the player has secured the ball. I see both arms go towards the ball but do not see if he secured the ball with one or two hands and when based on his feet. If I have to look that hard to determine a violation, then it did not happen. No more than I would do the same in a carry violation. It is either obvious to the naked eye or it did not happen.


Camron, the term "gather" is used all the time in basketball officiating circles to establish when a player is clearly attempting to catch the ball to shoot the basketball. I am not using a term that is strictly rulebook based in football. And players do not always bring the ball to their body to catch a football either. But there usually is a time frame or action where a player has to display some control of the ball and that is no different than what many might do to determine a gather. And again all I am saying is if I am going to say his pivot foot was on the ground when he caught the ball, I would like a little more than a super slow motion video for a play I will have to determine in real time. A lot of things happen that we do not technically call in many aspects of basketball officiating.

We obviously disagree and just because you say so does not mean that everyone that watches the video agrees with your take as I would not expect everyone to agree with mine. But if you want to call that a travel that is on you. I just want a little more than a video I have to slow down. And I would think that anyone in live speed calls this a travel probably anticipated the call rather than processed entirely what took place. I love how we get ultra upset because a travel that took place is not called, but we do almost never focus on the travels that are called that clearly are not there. And HS officials have a tendency to call many of the latter than those at the higher levels, which is why I have said that traveling is the most inconsistent call in all of basketball, not just the NBA.

Peace

All professional sports have certain rules geared towards being more entertaining...hell when you compare some NFL rules and enforcement compared to NCAA rules, you'd see how blatant it is. Am I to assume those same people that call the NBA the NBE or whatever silly acronym they're saying these days call the NFL the NFE?

Again, for all supposed things the NBA and their officials do in the name of entertainment, according to you, NCAA officials are doing the EXACT SAME THING...hell the rules committee and the head of officiating have gone so far as to add some of those very same rules and philosophies. Are those same people going to call NCAA men's basketball NCAAE?

Just because everyone says something does not mean it is true. Like many things in life people stereotype things they either do not really know or pay no attention to, but base their opinions off of things they hear from multiple sources. I guess it is sad because I would think officials would do more admitting to what they do not observe than listening to the media or uneducated people. If you watch NBA games at all (and I admit to not being a big fan of the NBA at least during the regular season), you will see many traveling calls made even on the so-called stars that everyone claims those calls are ignored based on who commits the violation. There was a tape shown of Doc Rivers' son of making multiple violations in gathering the ball on this very site while he was playing for Duke. Did anyone say anything about the officials not adhering to the rules and worried about entertainment? Nope.

Peace

Yes, the video is slowed down. Having noted that, how can anyone say this is not a travel. What did it look like in real time? Maybe somebody can post it. This is not a real fast moving play, I would think it still would be plenty obvious to call. The problem is, this play, and others, such as all the crap in the Austin Rivers video posted earlier, are all missed/ignored so often now that I feel guilty when I do call them.

"Mr. Ref, everybody else has let us do that all year."

Sad, but true.

I have never heard anyone say that on a traveling violation. Maybe someone standing outside the box or wearing an illegal undershirt, but never on a travel or a foul.

Peace

I haven't heard the words either, but it's obvious sometimes by the looks on the faces. Last year had a big guy who would catch on the high post, put the ball on the floor, do a spin move and shoot. One of those that you could call a travel even if you sneezed in the middle of it. When he picked up the dribble he was on one side of the lane facing the basket, and he would end up on the other side of the lane, also facing the basket, with a 360 spin in between.

Smooth

Pretty

Illegal

It was obvious that he had been allowed to make that move before.

For the play in question;

In 1982, sixth graders at recess would call it on themselves, "my bad, I travelled--fifth graders' ball."

In 1992, you'd punch your striped partner at halftime for missing it, and then punch yourself for not picking it up.

In 2002, you'd run it back in slow motion for verification, remind yourself what it looked like in real time, and vow to adjust accordingly on future similar plays if you missed it

In 2012, you couldn't be certain because the players are so stout and fast, and besides, how could you ever be called upon to decide when the player actually gained possession of the ball, and then was that foot he had on the floor when he caught it really on the floor, and even if you saw they travelled in slow motion, how could you ever be expected to make that call, and besides it's a game interruptor, and besides, you don't want to call it.

Interpolating to 2022, it's not a violation until you touch the baseline--take as many steps as you need to get there.

Full speed
 

Here it is at full speed:

Andrew Bynum 3pt attempt - WHAT IS HE THINKING? - YouTube

Embeded
 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ksr7x1KNisU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Oh God no!!! No way I am calling that live, nor would I be sure.

Peace

+1 - emphatically

I think it is difficult to impossible to say what one might have called or not called when one watches a play in real time after watching that same play in slow motion.

The question is, after seeing the slow motion which proves the violation, are you still saying this travel should not be called because it

"isn't obvious enough?"

Yes.

Some will not call traveling unless they're getting frequent flier miles. :0

Yes. Call the obvious all the time.

Peace

+2

I can tell you, after watching this in full speed, I would have called it. Is it possible my opinion is shaded by having watched the slow motion? Sure, but it looks pretty obvious to me

Wait til next season! More NBA principles will be added to the NCAA game...


And some will call travels even when they didnt really happen.

+ 100

Better to let one go than call one that wasn't.

Better to call one that wasn't than to ignore twenty.

jmo

I think that as we get older, it does take longer to process what took place on a particular play. Thank God that hasn't started happening with me yet. :)

This OP play is a fairly easy travel call in an HS game, at live speed. I guess some just have the ability to process it faster. To say that it would be an 'anticipated' call only shows disdain for those able make this call correctly at live speed.

Well said.

The is the first time I've seen the video. At full speed that's a pretty easy travel call, I don't think even I'd miss that one.

There's nothing wrong with anticipating a call which turns out to be the correct call.

Well if officials get these plays right at live speed, why is it they cannot get travels right when the pivot foot is easily identifiable? I see so many missed travels when the player is holding the ball and about to dribble than any other kind of movement in the game at the HS level, but now we want to act like officials get a player moving where possession and when the pivot foot is established. Please do not act like there are these vast amounts of officials that can identify a play like this in live speed when they cannot get a standing player travel before and after they make a move. And the reason this play would be hard to tell by this, is because the issue is possession, not what foot was on the ground. And that is the reason I posted the other play on this site yesterday. Actually I use that other situation in our meetings and class as an example of not whether it was an actual travel, but to illustrate to call the obvious. If you have to slow anything down to determine something like a travel, lane violation or a carry, they should not be called in my opinion. And most of us are not going to get video like this to show we were right. Because if you call something this close in a critical moment without slow motion, someone might just think you anticipated like I stated and not use you or expect you will get the big call right. Get the elephants, not the ants. This play to me is clearly an ant. The last thing I want to do is make a call that is very debatable. That is clearly the case when the people that advocate calling a travel have to qualify it by what they would do in live speed.

Peace

Great points, if we dont guess on fouls why should we guess on violations?

Yes sir, its about the quality of whistles not the quantity.

Now this comment came from another thread about a possible block/charge call we have recently discussed with video.

This was a response to that comment.

Now this is just an example of how HS officials love to find a travel in something that clearly is backed up by video that was not a travel. But we worry about the travel we have to slow down and call but hardly seem to be worried about the travel that we call that did not happen.

Peace

"Now this is just an example of how HS officials love to find a travel in something that clearly is backed up by video that was not a travel. But we worry about the travel we have to slow down and call but hardly seem to be worried about the travel that we call that did not happen. " by JRutledge

I agree. This is probably the most frustrating thing for me as a coach of young players:: trying to teach them footwork i.e. (the jump stop) or moves like this one and a ref blows the whistle and I truly don't think they understand the rules for a travel. It is way more frustrating to see a travel call when there was no violation than to see a no call on a travel.
And no offense to Ceasars Ghost but when I see posts like that it means you must not understand the rules for travel in great detail. You have to understand pivot foot and gather of the ball. Don't they have videos to demonstrate gathering of the ball and establishing pivot foot?.

Depends on which side you're on. What if the video in the OP is the guy hitting the winning shot against your team? Wouldn't that be frustrating for you?

Yes it would be frustrating but not as bad as calling a travel on our player who hit a game winner and did not travel but made a great move.
So It would hurt less to get beat by Bynums shot as an opposing player than it would to have a travel called on my player who made a move like the one in JRutleges video. I think most people who play or coach ball would agree

Of course not...but replace Doc Rivers' son with Kobe Bryant or LeBron James, and then the officials aren't enforcing the rules and it's allllll entertainment! :rolleyes:

Even with the fact that I have seen Kobe Bryant and LeBron James called for more travels in the past month than I saw in that one game with Rivers?

;)

Peace