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tref Tue Apr 03, 2012 09:01am

National C'Ship
 
All in all, what did we think of the officiating (individual & crew) in the biggest game of the year?

I'm a bit biased so I'll chime in later :D

Memo to APG: 1 play I'd LOVE to see again is the play in the 2nd half (sorry no time, but I'm sure you remember) where the Kansas player is OOB on the endline while tapping it back in play. The whistle-work, the communication & the style was so beautiful!! If I could incorporate some of that in my game, maybe I could be :cool:

tomegun Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:41am

Are you talking about when Robinson was almost to the sideline and the official, who was on the other side of the lane, blew his whistle and got on his knee while indicating he was out of bounds?

letemplay Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:43am

Pretty obvious (and easy) oob play. What do you want replayed? The official's mechanic or are you thinking he missed the call?

tref Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 835548)
Pretty obvious (and easy) oob play. What do you want replayed? The official's mechanic or are you thinking he missed the call?

It was very obvious to the televised crowd, not so much to those located on the table side of the floor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 835547)
Are you talking about when Robinson was almost to the sideline and the official, who was on the other side of the lane, blew his whistle and got on his knee while indicating he was out of bounds?

Yeah, seeing how the OOB was opposite table, that action removed any doubt from the bench.

tomegun Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:01am

My only hope is that you aren't someone that thinks some of Valentine's signals are over the top, but like this. I think what the official did was similar, but with less style. The only reason I even remember it was because I didn't think it was really necessary at the time.

tref Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 835555)
My only hope is that you aren't someone that thinks some of Valentine's signals are over the top, but like this. I think what the official did was similar, but with less style. The only reason I even remember it was because I didn't think it was really necessary at the time.

I respect that. I also believe if he didnt do what he did, the bench would've questioned him on the 38' call.

I guess some of us like to explain things after making a decision, others like to tell the tale at the spot to eliminate having to explain things...

Preventative conflict resolution? Effective non-verbal communication?
I'm all for it!

APG Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:28am

I know the play you're speaking off...the official blew his whistle at least 4-6 times for a clear and obvious OOB call.

tref Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:35am

You didnt like it either! I thought it was more like 8-10 times. If you get a chance throw it up for me sir. Perhaps it will change my mind...

FTR, I thought it was clear to the 2 players at the end of the bench, not so much to the coaching staff located at the top of the bench.

Camron Rust Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 835555)
My only hope is that you aren't someone that thinks some of Valentine's signals are over the top, but like this. I think what the official did was similar, but with less style. The only reason I even remember it was because I didn't think it was really necessary at the time.

I think there is a time and a place for such signals. I just think Valentine uses such signals too much, in situations that don't need it...like this case.

Toren Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:27pm

I liked the way the official whistled this play. To me watching it live, it wasn't so obvious that he was OOB when he touched the ball. I also wasn't so sure that he didn't reestablish by getting a foot back inbounds before touching the ball. I needed the replay.

I liked that the official told a story of what he saw and then I saw the replay and I agreed with him.

Nicely done.

Tio Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:31pm

I thought the crew was fabulous. I especially thought it was great the amount of energy that was spent talking to players and keeping their heads in the game. This was an extremely intense game with a frantic tempo.

Overall, I felt the crew was excellent.

twocentsworth Tue Apr 03, 2012 02:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 835531)
All in all, what did we think of the officiating (individual & crew) in the biggest game of the year?

I thought that the crew did a poor job in two areas:

1) dribble hand-off screens....WAY too much illegal contract by screener that impacted RSBQ of defenders. This was an emphasis during the year that was ignored last night. (this occurred primarliy when Kentucky was on offense)

2) post defenders (on BOTH ends) were allowed to significantly chest/body bump offensive players in the post after they received a pass....on several occassions, the offensive player was almost knocked over (let alone knocked off balance).

tref Tue Apr 03, 2012 02:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 835621)
I thought that the crew did a poor job in two areas:

1) dribble hand-off screens....WAY too much illegal contract by screener that impacted RSBQ of defenders. This was an emphasis during the year that was ignored last night. (this occurred primarliy when Kentucky was on offense))

The pick n roll with the UK guards & AD did catch my eye, but I thought they were marginal at best.
Doesnt RSBQ pertain to the ball handler?

Quote:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 835621)
2) post defenders (on BOTH ends) were allowed to significantly chest/body bump offensive players in the post after they received a pass....on several occassions, the offensive player was almost knocked over (let alone knocked off balance).

I liked that they allowed the bigs to bang in a National C'Ship game.
Aggresive, physical play is always ok. Rough play is never ok.

ballgame99 Tue Apr 03, 2012 03:36pm

I thought the game was called very consistently and had a good flow to it. There were only a call or two I remember questioning; meaning I thought they should have played on when a foul was called.

Enough about the officiating, man was that Star Spangled Banner brutal or what??!! Woof.

tref Tue Apr 03, 2012 03:42pm

I thought there were 2 or 3 questionable above the rim calls made by the L. Other than that it was pretty consistent & no GIs.

Not that I'm into the Fray or nothing like that, but I thought it was original & a pretty cool remix. It was definitely better than some of the students that get out there & embarass themselves at my games.

APG Tue Apr 03, 2012 03:51pm

Should've just had Monica do the anthem like she did for one of the Final Four games...that rendition last night was...."interesting."

Camron Rust Tue Apr 03, 2012 03:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 835631)
Enough about the officiating, man was that Star Spangled Banner brutal or what??!! Woof.

Indeed....it ranked right up there with the rendition by Rosanne Barr. I usually enjoy the Banner performances at big games....but this one should have never seen the light of day.

BillyMac Tue Apr 03, 2012 04:41pm

The Fray ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 835637)
Should've just had Monica do the anthem like she did for one of the Final Four games...that rendition last night was...."interesting."

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dQXkqoJnIlg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Nevadaref Tue Apr 03, 2012 05:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 835531)
All in all, what did we think of the officiating (individual & crew) in the biggest game of the year?

I'm a bit biased so I'll chime in later :D

Memo to APG: 1 play I'd LOVE to see again is the play in the 2nd half (sorry no time, but I'm sure you remember) where the Kansas player is OOB on the endline while tapping it back in play. The whistle-work, the communication & the style was so beautiful!! If I could incorporate some of that in my game, maybe I could be :cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 835570)
You didnt like it either! I thought it was more like 8-10 times. If you get a chance throw it up for me sir. Perhaps it will change my mind...

FTR, I thought it was clear to the 2 players at the end of the bench, not so much to the coaching staff located at the top of the bench.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 835634)
I thought there were 2 or 3 questionable above the rim calls made by the L. Other than that it was pretty consistent & no GIs.

Not that I'm into the Fray or nothing like that, but I thought it was original & a pretty cool remix. It was definitely better than some of the students that get out there & embarass themselves at my games.

I just have to ask how old you are because your posts indicate an excitement for flashy over-the-top mechanics and contain the use of camp catch-phrases. I'm guessing that you are between 24 and 27 with about five years of HS basketball officiating experience. Perhaps I am wrong, but you come across that way on the forum to me.

PS are you a bit biased because you are from Denver where Verne Harris lives and perhaps you have interacted with him previously?

JRutledge Tue Apr 03, 2012 05:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 835637)
Should've just had Monica do the anthem like she did for one of the Final Four games...that rendition last night was...."interesting."

Yep. I said that on my FB page before it was even over. That was probably the worst rendition of the National Anthem I have heard in a very long time if not ever.

Peace

tref Tue Apr 03, 2012 05:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 835652)
I just have to ask how old you are because your posts indicate an excitement for flashy over-the-top mechanics and contain the use of camp catch-phrases. I'm guessing that you are between 24 and 27 with about five years of HS basketball officiating experience. Perhaps I am wrong, but you come across that way on the forum to me.

PS are you a bit biased because you are from Denver where Verne Harris lives and perhaps you have interacted with him previously?

Dude :rolleyes:

Toren Tue Apr 03, 2012 06:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 835652)
I just have to ask how old you are because your posts indicate an excitement for flashy over-the-top mechanics and contain the use of camp catch-phrases. I'm guessing that you are between 24 and 27 with about five years of HS basketball officiating experience. Perhaps I am wrong, but you come across that way on the forum to me.

PS are you a bit biased because you are from Denver where Verne Harris lives and perhaps you have interacted with him previously?

What about me? Oh damn, I posted video of myself. :D

For the record, I haven't had the pleasure to interact with Verne Harris, but I thought he did a really nice job last night.

Camron Rust Tue Apr 03, 2012 06:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 835634)
Not that I'm into the Fray or nothing like that, but I thought it was original & a pretty cool remix. It was definitely better than some of the students that get out there & embarass themselves at my games.

I'd bet that The Fray made a lot more money for their version than those students you're referring to. Whoever paid them should ask for a refund.

Original it was (for a good reason) but I'm puzzled how a live performance can be called a remix.

twocentsworth Wed Apr 04, 2012 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 835623)
The pick n roll with the UK guards & AD did catch my eye, but I thought they were marginal at best.
Doesnt RSBQ pertain to the ball handler?

No...RSBQ applies to ALL players on the court (defenders as well as offensive players).



Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 835623)
I liked that they allowed the bigs to bang in a National C'Ship game. Aggresive, physical play is always ok. Rough play is never ok.

The same argument that says: "a foul at the end of the game should be called the same as a foul at the beginning of the game"...is in essence saying: "a foul in the national championship game should be called the same as a foul in the regular season".

imho, the ball screen and post defense plays were called differently than earlier in the year.

Let's see how John Adams "grades out" the crew.

From what I've been told, these were the percentage of correct calls (as determined by John Adams) in previous NCAA Championship games:

2010 Duke v Butler: 78%
2009 North Carolina v Mich. St.: 70%

btw, the best officials in the NBA (who advance to the playoffs) are in the 94% or better range.

tomegun Wed Apr 04, 2012 02:00pm

I thought there were several plays that were fouls and were not called. One play that comes to mind was when a Kansas defender just ran into Teague on the perimeter. Teague did a good job of not traveling as a result of the contact.

I'm not sure which of the officials was where on the calls I thought were fouls and it doesn't really matter to me.

tref Wed Apr 04, 2012 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 835746)
No...RSBQ applies to ALL players on the court (defenders as well as offensive players).

If you say so... I honestly think you're mistaking FOM for RSBQ.
I guess it all boils down to who's teaching it & how long one has been applying this concept. The people who have been practicing this for more than 5 seasons always seem to have a better understanding than those who have been introduced to this in the last few months.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 835746)
The same argument that says: "a foul at the end of the game should be called the same as a foul at the beginning of the game"...is in essence saying: "a foul in the national championship game should be called the same as a foul in the regular season".

imho, the ball screen and post defense plays were called differently than earlier in the year.

Did those three work together earlier in the year?
Have you watched every game that those three worked this year?
Perhaps the contact by two great defensive teams that have bigs across the board was considered marginal/incidental since nobody was put at a disadvantage?
Afterall, the same contact on a 5'9" player that results in a foul may not be a foul for a 6'9" player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 835746)
Let's see how John Adams "grades out" the crew.

From what I've been told, these were the percentage of correct calls (as determined by John Adams) in previous NCAA Championship games:

2010 Duke v Butler: 78%
2009 North Carolina v Mich. St.: 70%

btw, the best officials in the NBA (who advance to the playoffs) are in the 94% or better range.

The numbers you listed are Mr. Adams grading out the entire game. Perhaps two officials were in the mid 90s & one officials was considerably lower which in turn drops the crews overall call accuracy ratings.

I respect your opinion though.

canuckrefguy Wed Apr 04, 2012 04:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 835565)
I know the play you're speaking off...the official blew his whistle at least 4-6 times for a clear and obvious OOB call.

Clear and obvious to those photographers and cheerleaders on the endline - not so much to the folks in the cheap seats, or watching at home.

I didn't - and don't - mind it at all. Now if all of a guy's whistles are like that, there's a problem - but since when did having a little personality, presence, and salesmanship become a negative?

APG Thu Apr 05, 2012 01:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy (Post 835774)
Clear and obvious to those photographers and cheerleaders on the endline - not so much to the folks in the cheap seats, or watching at home.

I didn't - and don't - mind it at all. Now if all of a guy's whistles are like that, there's a problem - but since when did having a little personality, presence, and salesmanship become a negative?

I'd debate that anyone watching the game didn't know exactly what the whistle was but that's neither hear or there...I don't mind some of the selling when he closed down and point to the spot...just didn't like the 6 or so whistle that were unneeded to sell the call IMO.

rockyroad Thu Apr 05, 2012 09:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 835748)
I thought there were several plays that were fouls and were not called. One play that comes to mind was when a Kansas defender just ran into Teague on the perimeter. Teague did a good job of not traveling as a result of the contact.

I'm not sure which of the officials was where on the calls I thought were fouls and it doesn't really matter to me.

I agree.

I also did not like the fact that quite often both the T and the C were on the ball handler and his defender as the ball was being brought up court and the offense initiated. No pressure - just the two players, and the C is slowly walking up the court with the dribbler and the T.

Adam Thu Apr 05, 2012 09:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 835752)
If you say so... I honestly think you're mistaking FOM for RSBQ.
I guess it all boils down to who's teaching it & how long one has been applying this concept. The people who have been practicing this for more than 5 seasons always seem to have a better understanding than those who have been introduced to this in the last few months.

I have to ask, what's the substantive difference between FOM and RSBQ? They're both just different ways to say "prevented from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements." Don't get me wrong , I think they're great thought processes; but I find the insistence on a distinction on when to use which term to be silly. It's sort of like all the responses that come when someone says a coach "called" a timeout, or worrying about "baseline" vs "endline."

Raymond Thu Apr 05, 2012 09:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 835867)
I agree.

I also did not like the fact that quite often both the T and the C were on the ball handler and his defender as the ball was being brought up court and the offense initiated. No pressure - just the two players, and the C is slowly walking up the court with the dribbler and the T.

That is something I have complained about a few times here in the forum. I hate it.

tref Thu Apr 05, 2012 09:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 835868)
I have to ask, what's the substantive difference between FOM and RSBQ? They're both just different ways to say "prevented from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements." Don't get me wrong , I think they're great thought processes; but I find the insistence on a distinction on when to use which term to be silly. It's sort of like all the responses that come when someone says a coach "called" a timeout, or worrying about "baseline" vs "endline."

I respect that Snaqs.

But the substantive difference is:

RSBQ pertains to the ball handler & FOM applies to all players (offense & defense).

We did watch the captains meetings videos I shared with you guys last week, didnt we? I swear they said FOM applies to everybody. Chucks, holds, wraps, re-routes generally apply to FOM.

If the rhythm, speed, balance & quickness of a defender or offensive player without the ball is affected, it may or may not be a foul. They might recover quickly & be able to participate in normal defensive or offensive movements.
Or, it might not even have a bearing on the play ie; marginal screening infraction on the weakside that stumbles the defender, but the ball is already strongside in the post & a poster shot is imminent.
I'd like to see somebody call that foul & take away the dunk based on the RSBQ philosophy!! As a matter of fact, I'd LOVE to see that & hear the conversation with the coach as well :D

If the rhythm, speed, balance & quickness of the ball handler is affected, this is an absolute, an immediate whistle is required.

And that folks, is the substantive difference ;)

onetime1 Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:44am

I love the Fray and have seen them perform at summerfest in Milwaukee twice. They are very unique. I loved their version of the Anthem. Caught myself singing along for once. Great job.

Multiple Sports Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:48am

Great Point !!!!!!
 
ie; marginal screening infraction on the weakside that stumbles the defender, but the ball is already strongside in the post & a poster shot is imminent.
I'd like to see somebody call that foul & take away the dunk based on the RSBQ philosophy!! As a matter of fact, I'd LOVE to see that & hear the conversation with the coach as well :D


I see this play (mentioned above ), where there is a weakside screen maginally illegal and the ball is strongside being shop by a guy who is 40% behind the 3pt arc. We get into the lockeroom and two guys are rubbing each others stones saying they are working hard off the ball and what a great call that was, when (IMO) we stopped play for nothing....


Thoughts ????????

Mark Padgett Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports (Post 835884)
We get into the lockeroom and two guys are rubbing each others stones.....Thoughts ????????

Yeah. They should get a room. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Multiple Sports Thu Apr 05, 2012 05:46pm

That is dangerous......
 
Padg - stop putting false quotes up, you may ruin what is left of my character !!!!!! LOL!!!!!!


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