Needed college basketball rule changes.
 

Where did you get the idea for these rules changes? :confused:

Almost everything you listed is an NBA rule....

In fact, everything you've listed is an NBA rule ;)

NIT is more of a controlled environment with those arenas, I bet this is a facility issue more than anything.

Nope. Bad idea.

Nope.

Nope.

Nope.

Who cares.

To do what? Unnecessary.

The time is OK with me.

There is a reason the NBA has different rules. Let that level be what it is and let college be different.

Peace

I will say this...I agree with some of what you listed:

-NCAA should somehow mandate that facilities must have PTS...it's almost always a given that there will be a review in the final minute of a game if it's close game.
-I agree a team shouldn't be able to buy themselves out of a 10 second violation...not allowing this would promote good defense (compared to the NBA, 10 second violations or counts close to it are a lot more common than that for 8 second violations)
-I don't care if they expand it or not...wouldn't surprise me if they expanded it to 4 feet like the NBA
-If it were up to me, I'd just completely change how they handle media timeouts...I dunno how many times I've seen a timeout taken at the 11:50 mark...come back from commercial...a foul two seconds later...MEDIA TIMEOUT!
-The NBA does this for play-by-play purposes...I dunno if NCAA keeps track of that sort of thing.
-I don't know how long NCAA is compared to the NBA DQ time...either way, it's a whatever to me.
-I agree in principle that there shouldn't be an AP...and maybe that could be done for NCAA-M. But I'm not sure the average amount of held ball calls/game.
-I don't care either way if they went free throw line extended for violation and fouls below the free throw line extended or kept it the same

NCAA Changes.
 

Precision Timing at all NCAA tournament games. If it is good enough for the NIT [which is owned by the NCAA], then it is good enough for the big tournament. I have talked to a couple of Div. I officials and PST is a requirment at all NCAA Tournament games.


No reset of the back court count for a timeout. To quote Rut: Nope, bad idea.


Any violation or timeout from the free throw line extended to the baseline is an automatic side out. To quote Rut: Nope. But I would ask why would you change to this.


Expanded 'restricted area'. Get rid of that and go back to the old rule.


No alternate possession. AGREE!!! It is an abomination upon the game. This one is for you Billy, :p.


No 'media timeout' if the whistle is to retrieve an 'errant ball'. Agree, lets get the game moving; Team Timouts are okay.


Require officials to report to scorers table the jersey number of all three second violations, lane violations, offensive goaltending. :eek: Read the rules. Fouls are Charged and Penalized; Violations are Penalized.


Reduce the time given to coaches to substitute after a disqualification. Leave well enough alone.

MTD, Sr.

NBA fans are one thing, but to assume the rules of every other basketball league need to mirror theirs? Nah.

Wrong forum fanboy, take it up with the COACHES on the rules committee

It's most definitely the correct forum...hell we have a yearly thread discussing rules and mechanics changes that we'd like to see for NFHS.

Well you know that and I know that...but fanboys dont, they just come here to ***** about rules they dont like to officials. I'm just trying to educate him on who exactly makes up the rules.

I don't see him/her, in anyway, acting like a "fanboy." I just see a poster who suggested some rules changes that he/she would like to see implemented in college basketball. It just happened that the rules changes came from the pro rule set.

We shouldn't assume the worst in a new posters...that's just a sure fire way to make sure we don't get new blood around here.

New posters who are "officials" don't post a litany list of rules they dislike on post #2 on an "officials" forum. Maybe fanboy was a misnomer, how about refereehater. They come out this time of year as well.

If "you" want to welcome all with open arms, so be it. Just don't lump "me" into that particular "we" category. Believe it or not I've been around enough to know the intent of posts like the above.

Fair enough

I find it kind of refreshing that he put his complaint in the form of a rule change suggestion rather than blaming in on the officials.

Why? What does it matter the reason for the clock stoppage? The media TO has to be taken either way. Sorry but that makes no sense.

I don't know who you've talked to but they're clueless.

BTW, this is the third time you've referred to it as PST. It is NOT PST. It is PTS, Precision Timing System.

And it is NOT used in the NCAA Tournament.

Having said all that, if they can afford to install their own floor at every venue, then they can certainly afford PTS at every venue.

It should be PMS, :p.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. I have talked to two NCAA Div. I evaluators (who are former Div. I officials) and they have told me that PTS is being used. Ask my sons, I refer to Law & Order: SVU as Law & Order: SUV, :D.

I agree all of these sound like an NBA fan who wants to see the changes but...that's why college basketball is college basketball and the NBA is the NBA. They should have a different set of rules in some areas.

I'm in the media and here's something someone pointed out to me years ago: there's a reason why when we put a courtesy on the screen for old NBA footage we use "NBA Entertainment."

As for the rules "suggestions" I can't see a reason for most, if not all, of them (reducing the time on DQ subs...to what, five seconds?). Unlike Mark Sr. I'd like to keep the AP arrow since I always get beat up on jump balls :o

If they told you all games were being played on Mars, would you believe that too?

Watch a game, Mark. Have you seen anyone using PTS? No.

Have you seen them reviewing the monitor to reset the game clock in almost every game? Yes.

Sheesh. Think for yourself, dude.

If they were using PTS, then you would see the black box around the waist...watch tomorrow and you'll notice none are wearing it.

So true. If they had a choice in paying for shiny new floors for 14 venues or installing the timing device, I'm going with the timing device.

Mark,

They are clearly not using that system. They are very easy to spot. You would see a different mechanic with the chop in most cases and each official, especially the administering official would have their hand on their hip or behind their back based on where they decide to clip the device to their belt. And if you used the system, you would identify it clearly. Now they may use it during the season, but they are not using it during the tournament. At least not the Men's Tournament for sure.

Peace

Why is it used during regular season, but not during the tournament? Are there flaws in the system?

Money...as in they don't want to spend the money on it.

There might be. I know they have had some problems previously and maybe that is the reason for not using it for all tournament games. Each conference decides if they use it and not all conferences use it and I am sure some officials might not be familiar as others. That does not mean that is a good reason, but it seems to be part of the reason it is not used.

Peace

Seems that there would be at least as much money available for tournament games as regular season games.

I stand corrected.
 

Maybe it is my old age and I am having trouble seeing if the officials are wearing a box on their waist; I don't have a super dooper (pooper scooper, :p) ginormous plasma flat screen, but if esteemed members of ths Board state that PTS is not being used then I will defer to their knowledge.

note: Duffman, see how I apologized for making a mistake.

But getting back to why PTS isn't being used in the NCAA tournament. I JUST CAN'T BELIEVE IT. Even The University of Toledo (my better half's alma mater has it for the regular season) and it's men's team got knocked out at home in the second round for the CollegeInsider.com post-season tournament. The NCAA is swimming in money and PTS is not being used in the Tournament, just no excuse for that.

Okay, time for me to go back in my corning and mind my own business.

Everybody have a nice weekend and good luck in your NCAA pools.

MTD, Sr.

Your sources are wrong. There's an entire thread based on an end-of-half error that wouldn't have occurred with PTS.

That's because, according to Fox News, they've all had head implants. Watch them all blink when the chop the ball in.

Remember - if you see it on Fox News, it must be true. At least, that's what Billy Packer told me.

New Rule: no adhesive/sticker or similar items (i.e. sponsor logos, conference insignias, or memorial ribbons) are allowed to be placed anywhere on the playing surface. They provide a health/injury risk to all players/officials who run over it. Any court markings MUST be painted/pre-finished onto the floor (just as current NCAA torunament court markings are now).

There is no reason why TV can't superimpose these on the TV screen (think yellow first down line in foot all games) and protect participants from injury.

If it's on MSNBC, it'll send a thrill up your leg.

Some posts don't really need to be quoted, do they?

Lo siento.

All is forgiven.

Add another rule to the NCAA Change List.
 

Regarding Required Substitutions:

R3-S4-A3f (Men): When an injured player is unable to attempt his free throw try(s), the coach from the opposing team shall select one of the four remaining players on the playing court to attempt the free throw try(s). When the foul is flagrant and the injured player is unable to attempt the free throw try(s), the injured player’s coach shall select any player or team member to attempt the free throw try(s).


Delete the bold in red.

MTD, Sr.

What are you corning?

Actually, they need to eliminate it. This is a totally stupid rule driven by huge misconception. Good defense is good for the game. Plus, players have been real good about adjusting when going full speed into the lane; why can't they adjust when someone is playing defense there -- secondary defender or otherwise.

I agree, but I think it's like the coach timeout. It's here to stay and probably coming down.

If I had to add a couple more to the list, it would be this:

• Using the shot clock for the ten second backcourt count which is more accurate than an officials count.
• Having five seconds to shoot a free throw instead of ten. There is no way a player should need ten seconds to do that when you only have five to throw the ball in from out of bounds. In fact, during an NIT game last week at the University of Washington, the free throw shooter was taking so long, I saw Dave Hall looking up at the ceiling.
• Not allowing teammates to congratulate the free throw shooter for a made free throw. It needlessly delays the game. In fact, I read the NBA wanted to do something about it at their level and the Players Association rejected the change.

The rule was put in place for safety purposes, not for really any other reasons. The NCAA wanted to eliminate a lot of unnecessary contact under the basket. And I think it has done just that.

Peace

Well the problem with that is the clock has nothing to do with the start of the 10 second backcourt count, so you would have to change a couple of rules to accomplish that. And what if the defense touched the ball first, do you want to penalize the offense when they do not have control? Because that is the other ramification for that rule you suggest to be changed.


These last two goes into the "Who cares" category. Not sure I have ever had a problem with the time it takes to shoot a FT and certainly do not care as the ball goes in the hole and often a sub is being made would I care about someone congratulating someone.

Peace

I agree that some rules and definitions would have to be changed, but this isn't penalizing the defense, but rather would award the defense by allowing more of the 10 second count to expire. Same with having a hard count for the backcourt count.

Would the offense be hurt by the rule change? Sure, but I don't feel bad for them because they're in control of the ball while they're throwing the ball in (speaking literally...not the rule book definition of team control), and have control of where the ball goes.

As far as the five second deal, I wonder if FIBA officials enforce that strictly or are lax like those under NF/NCAA/NBA rule sets are...I've never viewed this as an issue...either with players slapping hands after free throws.

That cat is never going back in the bag...coaches are too paranoid, and I wouldn't blame them. There's too much on the line at the NCAA and NBA level to not think a coach would abuse your suggested rule re-change at an opportune time. Heck, just look at some of the issues and problems of teams being accused of abusing an injury timeout at "opportune" times in NCAA football and even the NFL now.

I mistyped, I meant the offense.

Peace

A far easier change would have been to have official call the charge that happened under the basket rather than require a new marking and rule. Had they done so, the offensive players would have stopped flying in even after they saw a defender standing there. It would have fixed the "safety" problem just the same and could have been done so without a rule change. However, while they may have stated it was about safety, it was about opening up the basket area just as much.

But how were you/we going to call plays "under the basket" and do so consistently without the RA on the court? With no marking it would be left up to officials' judgment as to what "under the basket" meant.

That's not what he's saying. He's saying to call the area under the basket just like any other area on the court. If the officials had called the proper charges under the old rules, the effect (fewer crashes under the glass) would have been the same.

Sorry. Misread it. :(

At any rate, the rules people (coaches) usually put stuff like this in because they feel we've been inconsistent. This takes away the officials' thought process for the most part.

I'll agree with this, too many officials were just no-calling the play because they decided it didn't need to be called.

The safety part is so that they will stop allowing defenders to cheaply get contact and either have nothing called or prevent players from being willing to go hard to the basket. Of course the safety part was to open up the basket area. And I see players all the time get out of the way in order not to get a silly foul. I think the rule accomplished what they wanted it to.

Peace

I just don't get how anyone thinks that blocking an offensive player's path to where they want to shoot the ball is a cheap foul. That, to me, is the fundamental meaning of defense. If the offense chooses to continue through that spot anyway, they should be held responsible.

Of course, the NCAA (and NBA) redefined a basic fundamental of the game more to open up scoring under the guise of safety (regardless of what they say) instead of having officials call the rules that were in place which would have equally (perhaps more even more so) affected safety. I call it that way in an NCAA game, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

I think we - through the inconsistency - helped created the safety issue. If we as a whole had been putting a whistle on those plays, one way or another, the problem would've stopped itself.

As far as I'm concerned, a kid standing under the goal waiting for contact is no more dangerous to an airborne shooter than a kid standing at one of the blocks on the FT lane. What makes the kid under the goal more "dangerous" is not calling a block (if, indeed, that's what it is).

That being said, I'm happy to say I didn't have any RA calls this past season in my NCAA games. That may change when the RA comes to girls' H.S. ball in New York State next season.

My eyes still haven't adjusted...
 

A review like this is rarely seen.

I saw Pat Driscoll doing exactly this during last years tournament. And if the ball went through the bottom of the net at 1:01 and the clock runs under a minute and if you stop the clock for a review and you determine the clock should still run since the ball went through the bottom of the net at 1:01, you can't take any extra time off the clock.

The under minute rule is good game management & having competent table officials that know what exactly to look for. In this case, as well, it's better to pre-game with partners & table what is to be expected & any variances/oddities that could happen.

Why pregame the timing rules with the timer? He/she should already know them as part of being assigned that job.

Especially at the collegiate level.

Not always at the Collegiate Level, do you get a table crew that fully knows the rules (example: the local community college uses NCAA rules & for the regular season games they use a couple of female students that only barely know the basics).

See example above.

Also at the Community College tournament, we almost had a blarge because of the under minute timing rule, thankfully the table pregamed and the timer, scorer, & shot clock were in constant communication with each other throughout the game. However right before the final minute started, shot went in & the timer stopped the clock with 1:00.95 left in the game, thankfully the clock was started back up immediately (very fast paced Mens game) & neither the coaches nor floor officials noticed.

How does the time affect a block/charge call?

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'd love to read that story.

What if the throw-in is tipped by the defense and the offense doesn't gain player control for 2 more seconds?

Well obviously, you would have to change when the backcourt count starts

When a team in the double bonus gets fouled in the last minute of the 2nd half or overtime, they should get 3 shots instead of 2 (for shooting fouls too). A foul is supposed to penalize a team and should not be used to a team's advantage. This will make it harder - but not impossible - for teams to come back by intentionally fouling their opponent and also eliminates the intentional foul late in the game committed by a team up by three - essentially guaranteeing a win for a team just because they intentionally broke the rules.

(note that this would not have had an effect on the KU-OSU game because Kansas had only committed enough fouls to put Ohio State in the single bonus, but that is kind of what reminded me of this)

Also, eliminate one media timeout per half (have them at the first stop under 15:00, 10:00, and 5:00) even if they added an extra commercial to each break

Eliminate the 5-second "closely guarded" violation or limit it to held ball situations only. Its always baffled me that a team "can be rewarded with possession for "actively playing defense" even when in many cases they never even touch the ball

What if a team is only in the 1-and-1. Does it become 1-and-1-and-1?

See NCAA-W rules.

I still say use 1-and-1 like it is now. as to not punish a team that hasn't committed 10 fouls yet

Thanks I never knew that. I would like to see them implement the NCAA-W rule for 5-seconds closely guarded in the men's game, but still in the frontcourt only

No way, all you would get is dribbling around. The defense should be credited for making the offense move or do something.

Peace

The Anti Rick Barry Rule ???
 

Anybody remember the NBA three to make two rule?

That's a point I think some of the critics of the change are missing. This is not a substantive change to impose a requirement that the ball reach frontcourt by 25 on the shot clock; it is a procedural change to use the ticks of the shot clock for the 10 seconds, instead of a less reliable hand count.

A solution in search of a problem.

You make FT this is not much of an advantage.

Peace

Well, if a team is intentionally fouling we do have a method of dealing with that... ;)

Exactly, and I've rarely seen this tactic last more than two or three fouls.

I do, :D.

MTD, Sr.

Katie:

Since 1+1 Bonus Free Throws are shot for Common Fouls which are the 7th, 8th, and 9th Team Fouls of the half, and 2 Free Throws are shot for CFs starting with the 10th TF of the half. About ten years or so ago, I floated the following idea: Keep the 1+1 Bonus as is; shoot 2 FTs for CFs which are the 10th, 11th, and 12th TFs in the half; and then shoot 3 FTs for CFs starting with the 13th TF of the half.


I like this idea.


NCAA Women's Closely Guarded Rule is only while holding the ball in both the Backcourt and the Front Court; this is a holdover from the NAGWS Rules which was taken from the FIBA Rules which is still the same even though FIBA has adopted a Backcourt Violation Rule now. I would like to see the NFHS and NCAA Men's Committees adopt the NCAA Women's Rule but only in the Front Court.

MTD, Sr.

You're joking, right? You really think taking 10+ minutes to play the last 2 clock minutes in almost EVERY game is how basketball should be played?

Saving time outs is one thing; endless free throw shooting is ridiculous. That doesn't even speak to the idiotic idea that a team can gain an advantage by consistent intentional rules infractions. Name one other sport that allows that?

Let us not exaggerate the situation. Most basketball games do not take that long to begin with and this part of the game takes long just because of foul situations. And yes I can name another sport and it is baseball. Baseball has not clock and drags because when the game is close and even out of hand coaches/managers do all kinds of substitutions that extend the game much longer than 10 minutes. This to me is a solution looking for a problem as the people that complain about this are often participants and especially officials because they want to save a few minutes to be somewhere else. As I said if teams make FTs this strategy does not work. And if you give players more FTs there is no guarantee it will still work and certainly not at the HS level. I cannot count the number of times where if players made FTs near the end of the game, they would have won that game. And I am not just referring to just fouling situations near the end of the game either.

Peace