For those of you that have already been to camp this summer, what's some of the feedback you're getting?
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I have 10.
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1. Stay in your primary. 2. Strong signals sell "weak calls." 3. You do not have a second chance to make a first impression. 4. You are always being watched by someone, on and off the court. 5. Do not be a rulebook official. 6. Always look, act and dress as if your career depends on it. 7. Listen to everyone's advice, take what you can use, throw out what will not work for you. 8. Be aware of your facial expressions. 9. Mental preparation starts at home, not just in the locker-room. 10. Be a good partner. There is much more, but these are the sayings I got the most out of so far in this camp season. Peace |
Re: I have 10.
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Rut,
Those are all pretty straight-forward except for #5 might be misinterpreted by some. <i> 5. Do not be a rulebook official.</i> Maybe you could elaborate for those who might misunderstand. When I have heard this said, it <b>hasn't</b> meant to not know the rulebook inside and out, but it has meant to use a little common sense in <b>applying</b> the rules. In other words, don't call 20 "three in the keys" during a game and don't call 20 traveling violations etc. Z |
You are on the right track.
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Peace |
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The best way I've heard "Don't be a rule book official" is there ARE rules and then there is the SPIRIT of the rule. If a player takes advantage from the spirit of the rule, call it. If there is no advantage, let it go.
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On the other hand, if someone is in there for 3.000000001 seconds, you don't necessarily have to call the violation. |
If me and my partner notice that we're starting to get a few "3-in-the-key" calls, we'll talk through our whistles to them out (you'd have to assume some low quality ball in that sitch). If that doesn't work, we'll tell the coaches to help us out. If that doesn't work, we must be in the twilight zone. The reason I mentioned 3-in-the-key as an example is from something I saw once. In my second year of officiating, I went to a ref camp put on by our state officials assoc. My partner in one game was even greener than me and he must have called 20 3-in-the-keys in one frosh level game. After the game, the evaluators tried to explain to him some ways he could have avoided doing that. The green official kept saying, "but they were in there too long each time." Yes, they were in the key too long, but did it help the game or were they necessary? That fits my definition of a "rulebook official" even though I hate that term because it implies that knowing the rules like a scholar might somehow be bad.
Z |
Hell You mean there is a FALSE double foul? I just learnd what a double foul was tonghit. LOL
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Peace |
For those of us who are neither rulebook scholars nor have one handy, what is rule 10-3-12?
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.......and BTW, when there are 2 seconds left in the game and something strange happens that you can not ignore, you darn well better know the rules inside and out. Z [Edited by zebraman on Jun 18th, 2003 at 10:35 AM] |
You mean you do not know?
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Without quoting the rule word for word (like many expect here for some reason), it deals with touching the baskeball by a defender, which results in a Technical Foul. If you touch the thrower, this is just an intentional foul (not part of this rule, but should be noted). In both cases there is no warning if this takes place, just a Foul (T or Intentional) should be called no matter what. Peace |
10-3-12 does not apply.
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Peace |
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From what I understand the rules committee is made up of a chairman, regional representatives (8) plus 1 rep from the NF coaches association and 1 from the NF officials association. Doing a little research, based on a copy of the 95-96 committee members that I happen to have handy, I found the following credentials: <TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD>Chairman</TD><TD>Rick Wulkow</TD><TD>NCAA Men's D1 official</TD></TR><TR><TD>Section 1</TD><TD>Peter Webb</TD><TD>longtime area basketball official<BR>Maine Commissioner of Basketball<BR>National Federation of Officials Association's Distinguished Official Award<BR>President of the national IAABO group for 2001-2002</TD></TR> <TR><TD>Section 2</TD><TD>Artie Walker</TD><TD>Coach</TD></TR> <TR><TD>Section 3</TD><TD>Mac Chauvin</TD><TD>NCAA Men's D1 Official</TD></TR> <TR><TD>Section 4</TD><TD>Nate Hampton</TD><TD>State Activities Assistant Director</TD></TR><TR><TD>Section 5</TD><TD>Jim Robinson</TD><TD>Not sure? Too many Jim Robinsons to tell</TD></TR> <TR><TD>Section 6</TD><TD>Bob Ottewill</TD><TD>State Activities Commissioner</TD></TR><TR><TD>Section 7</TD><TD>Violet Palmer</TD><TD>NBA Official</TD></TR> <TR><TD>Section 8</TD><TD>Larry Klaassen</TD><TD>State Activities Commissioner</TD></TR> <TR><TD>NFICA Rep</TD><TD>Rebecca Morrisey</TD><TD>Coach</TD></TR> <TR> <TD>NFIOA Rep</TD><TD>Ronald Michaelson</TD><TD>IHSA, Springfield Officials Assn.</TD></TR></TABLE> So, at in 95-96, There were 2 NCAA D1 Men's officials, 1 future NBA official, 2 HS Officials, 3 State Commissioners/Directors, 2 Coaches, and one unknown. It's certainly possible I've missed some of the credentials for some of them too. I couldn't tell the background of the state commissioners. They may have been coaches, officials, or neither. Even if they (and the unknown) were all coaches, that would make it 5 officials to 6 others on the committee. |
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If you were to even look at the NCAA Men's and Women's Committees, can you tell me how many officials are present? I have never said there are abosolutely, no officials on the committee. But officials in my opinion cannot be making decisions with one or two members. If the majority of those are not officials, then officials are not making the decisions. They might have imput, they might have a voice, but if the majority does not want to listen to them, they do not have to. I have been on committees as a representative of a group and was easily out voted because of I no one cared about the faction I was representing. Peace |
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See: http://www.cifccs.org/Playing%20Rule...%20Minutes.pdf for the minutes of this year's NHFS Basketball Rules committee meeting. They are, Chair: Larry Boucher, official Sect. 1: Bob Pugh, official Sect. 2: Jack Baly, official Sect. 3: Wanda Gilliland, coach Sect. 4: Theresia Wynns, official Sect. 5: Bill Lewis, unknown Sect. 6: Marvin Barbee, official Sect. 7: Gary Whelchel, official Sect. 8: Jim Wilund, official NFCA: Kathy McGee, coach NFOA: Ronnie Girouard, official Also present as guests in the rules meetings were Mary Struckhoff, Lori Brown, Ed Bilik, Peter Webb, and Bill Top. I think 3-4 of these are/were officials. By my count of those actually on the current committee, thats 8 officials, 2 coaches, and 1 unknown. Two of the officials are new this year so it could have been only 6 last year since I'm not sure who they replaced. On several of these, I found evidence of extensive experience at respectable levels including state tournaments, college, etc. Quote:
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Now, they are a dominant majority: 8 vs 3 others. So, your entire argument is moot since the situation for at least the past 2-3 years has seen the officials in the majority on the committee. ~ [Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 18th, 2003 at 05:55 PM] |
Camron, if you look................
at the beginning of the NCAA book, both NCAA Committees are mentioned and lists the schools they are from. It is possible that there are some officials in the committee, but all are listed as representing schools. And some of them are obviously coaches like John Thompson III of Princton (Men's Head Coach) and Dave Odom of Wake Forest University (Men's Head Coach). So from all accounts on the NCAA side, they are coaches and administrators. And anyone can look this up for themselves.
Now if you claim they are all officials, where is the link or the background information on all the commitee members. Because other than you saying they are official, you said nothing about where they were from and how long they have been on the committee. No information other than you say it is that way. I just want proof or a place to look it up. I just read on the National Federation site not too long ago where a new member to the board was an administrator that had no officiating experience according to the press release. BTW, I have heard that the NF has made all these mechanic changes, but I cannot find any information or evidence that these changes have taken place. The only change that is indicated on the site as far as I can see is the "kicking the ball" mechanic. No information about any other mechanic changes that were listed on this board by someone from Wisconsin over a month ago. I sure would like to see the link to this if it is true about birddogging. ;) Peace |
Two things:
#1 - Dick Knox, former committee member and chairman, officiates D-II and D-III basketball. I think the point is that officials and coaches alike should have a say in what rules are changes. It shouldn't be all one-sided. #2 - I beleive this is the year that the NF prints an Officials' Manual. Since changes in mechanics are not really rules, I would anticipate any chages to show up in the Manual. |
Re: Camron, if you look................
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Of course, we were talking about HS official under HS rules. Back to the original topic... Quote:
You could look it up just like I did on http://www.google.com. The searh I did was <b>"FirstName LastName" basketball official</b>. It's amazing what info is out there if you look. I'll even redo it and include the links here: Chair: Larry Boucher, official, KIAC Commissioner and Supervisor of Men's Officials, http://www.kiacsports.org/news.htm Sect. 1: Bob Pugh, official, listed in the box scores of several college games and NCAA regionals, http://www.gmcgriff.com/refonline/camps.html#rmfboc Sect. 2: Jack Baly, official, IAABO Life Membership Bd. 11, DE, http://www.iaabo.org/life_membership1.htm Sect. 3: Wanda Gilliland, coach Sect. 4: Theresia Wynns, official, 6 Indiana state finals, http://www.hoopshall.com/news/2002/w_center_circle.html Sect. 5: Bill Lewis, unknown Sect. 6: Marvin Barbee, official, Oklahoma Supervisor of game officials, East Central Officials Assn, http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8 and http://www.ossaa.com/partners/ossaa/people/ Sect. 7: Gary Whelchel, official, NASO Chair and 23 years in state tourney, 7 finals, http://www.naso.org/PressReleases/st83.htm Sect. 8: Jim Wilund, official, listed as an official in several small college box scores, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...=Google+Search NFCA: Kathy McGee, coach NFOA: Ronnie Girouard, official, President of TASO (Texas Officials), http://basketball.officiating.com/x/article/2162 If that's not enough info for you nothing will convince you that you were wrong in claiming people other than officials are changing/writing the rules. |
Re: Re: Camron, if you look................
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Peace |
Re: Re: Re: Camron, if you look................
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Now, if you'd like to discuss whether the officials on the committees represent the interests of all officials in the best way possible, that's a different topic. Start a new thread. |
Hey Chuck - what's the over/under on whether Rut will admit he was wrong this time??? I know this guy in Seattle named Nueheisel who's looking to drop some money someplcae...say like 5 grand or so!!
And Tony - I love "A River Runs Through It"...just watched it with my sons about 2 weeks ago!! |
Thank you Chuck, once again.
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Peace |
Re: Thank you Chuck, once again.
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4C. Screens <ul><li>Moving screens</li></ul><ol><li>The screener must be stationary upon contact.</li><li>It is not a moving screen unless there is contact.</li></ol> Further, I'd venture to say that 90% or more of the people on this board work HS ball (considering that a few coaches and fans are present). I'd also venture that less than 25% work any form of college. The focus of the debate was on who was on the HS committee. That is who you asked about and what the breakdown was. Once you were disproven there, you attempted disparage the motives and quality of the members of the committee. Even if we consider the NCAA, your initial statement made no such claim. It was that non-officials are making the rules---to which I provided a clear counter example. Just found a really thorough biography on each of the current HS committee members: http://www.cifccs.org/Playing%20Rule...tee%20Bios.pdf Found that Bill Lewis is also an official...makes it 9 to 2. |
Re: Re: Thank you Chuck, once again.
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Peace |
I think Neuheisel's money is safe on this one Camron...he's never gonna step up and admit he was wrong...he spends too much time looking for ways out...everyone else here knows you showed him up...let it go.
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Man, what a low blow to Neuheisel. Just when you think the embattled Husky coach has reached rock bottom, you mention in the same breath as Rut. Ouch. :-)
Z |
My how this thread has spiralled out of control...
Here's what I learned at Dave Hall's Camp... 1) Hustle everywhere! 2) Work the entire baseline as lead. 3) Game management is a must to progress. 4) Move with a purpose. 5) Learn how to ask for help. 6) Find a mentor. 7) Hold your whistle. 8) Use the 80/20 principle. If it's 80% clean and 20% foul, let it go. Any less than 80%, call it. 9) When dealing with coaches, approach on your terms. 10) Fair does not mean equal. 11) If it's a flop, the head goes back first. If it's a charge, the head goes forward. 12) Learn these 3 phrases: -Coach, you're right. -I don't know, I might have missed it. -Coach, I'm right. I know I'm right. |
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Interesting - it's physically correct (in a good deal of cases), but might be hard to distinguish in a "bang-bang" play . . . |
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All you really have to do...........
is look at the feet. If the feet stay in the same place, it is usually a flop. If the feet move and the player goes backwards, it is charge.
I never heard of the head movement before, I might have to pay more attention to that in the future. Peace |
Just a matter of interest - when you guys are quoting rules which rulebooks are you using ... FIBA or some USA college/highschool...or whatever other interpretations you have over there?!?!
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Only HS.
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Peace |
Geeze....what a mess. Anyway, this thread includes 2 new ways (new to me at least) of determining a flop and now I'm left wondering why it's a good idea to watch a defenders feet or head when we should be looking for body contact. |
More than body contact.
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Peace |
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It's not a 100% indicator, but the laws of physics govern the flop/charge one. Due to inertia, the head will stay still upon chest contact, at least until the neck (hopefully) pulls the head back. If it all goes together, it's because the muscles are pulling the neck back. |
But when I'm alone in the half-light of the canyon, all existence seems to fade to being with my soul and memories, and the sounds of the Big Blackfoot River and a four-count rhythm, and a hope that a fish will rise. Eventually all things merge into one....and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood, and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of the rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words. And some of the words are theirs. I am haunted by waters BsktBallRef, that is breathtaking. |
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Sorry to get off track again, but just how many differences are there between your HS rules and say, FIBA rules. Cause I know NBA rules are a pile of .... but was wondering if all your other leagues are the same ;)
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Seriously......
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Peace |
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And I'm looking forward to it. |
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