Philosphical Question for the Experts

[Grail]

I would like to pose this question to the forum regarding Official Signals vs. Unofficial Signals:

I accept that under NFHS mechanics, the foul tip signal on a blocked shot, the travel signal on an inbounds violation, and the arms spread signal on a not closely guarded situation are all incorrect. In fact, I realize that I need to make sure I'm not making those mistakes.

The question I have is whether or not it really does any harm? Again I know it's not proper mechanics, but those signals do serve a purpose. They communicate what the official saw to everyone in the gym. I ask this group becuase it is a common critique of many members of this forum when they comment on games they have watched.

I know that when a shot is blocked and the official doesn't make a signal that it must have been a clean block, but to listen to the groaning from the crowd and the bench it is obvious that they disagree. At least the signal indicates that the official saw the play and made a ruling.

The travel signal strikes me as being even more informative. The violation signal of an open hand tells everyone that something happened. The coaches may even understand what happened, but the crowd, as we all know, is usually clueless. At least this signal, incorrect as it is, tells them what was called.

Again, let me state that I'm not advocating anyone using personal or improper mechanics, just posing a question as to the philosophy behind the mechanics.

[Andy]

Personally , I like using the spread arms in the not closely guarded situation to say that I am aware of the rule, but at this point in time it is not applicable. I try not to do it in HS games, but I have caught myself using it.

I can't agree with your view on the travel signal on the spot throw in violation. By using the travel signal, we send the message that traveling rules are in effect during a spot throw in. In that case, you need to be very verbal about the violation that you are calling.

As for the "foul tip" signal on a clean block, I was taught never to use it. Here is the main reason: Lead official sees the shot attempt and is giving the "foul tip" signal as the trail or slot blows the whistle and calls a foul on the defender. Now you have a defensive coach screaming that the lead had a clean block, why is the other guy calling a foul?!? It just avoids problems to not give any signal in this case.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Grail


The question I have is whether or not it really does any harm? Again I know it's not proper mechanics, but those signals do serve a purpose. They communicate what the official saw to everyone in the gym. I ask this group becuase it is a common critique of many members of this forum when they comment on games they have watched.

It can. A "tip signal" on a blocked shot can cause a lot of problems, if for no other reason, one guy has a block and the other has a foul. That is never good. The only time I can see that kind of signal that works, if you are selling an already out of bounds play and using the "tip signal" to sell it. But usually that is not warranted, and really is more of an issue for your assignor or evaluator.

Originally posted by Grail

I know that when a shot is blocked and the official doesn't make a signal that it must have been a clean block, but to listen to the groaning from the crowd and the bench it is obvious that they disagree. At least the signal indicates that the official saw the play and made a ruling.

Yes, but it is unnecessary. If you did not call a foul, you do not really need another signal.

Originally posted by Grail

The travel signal strikes me as being even more informative. The violation signal of an open hand tells everyone that something happened. The coaches may even understand what happened, but the crowd, as we all know, is usually clueless. At least this signal, incorrect as it is, tells them what was called.

There is no such thing as a travel on an out of bounds play. It cannot happen by rule. So giving a travel signal is really silly. You are only confusing what the players can and cannot do. Most coaches act like there is a piviot foot out of bounds, and there obviously is not. So when officials do this, it just creates more confusion.

Originally posted by Grail

Again, let me state that I'm not advocating anyone using personal or improper mechanics, just posing a question as to the philosophy behind the mechanics.

I think for the most part you should stay away from those kind of signals. Especially for younger officials that have not achieved a certain level of basketball. And usually the veterans lose their way when they get to the top, which would have never been allowed if they were trying to move up. I will never say never, use any signals that are not authorized, but as a rule you should stay away from them as much as possible.

Peace

[Grail]

I agree whole heartedly that a travel signal is the wrong signal as it indicates a violation of a different rule and please again bear in mind that I'm not advocating using any of these. The purpose of the question was to ask about better ways to communicate. Perhaps a different kind of signal vs. just the simple open hand. I can't think of any other violation that is left without any other distinguishing gesture.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Grail
I agree whole heartedly that a travel signal is the wrong signal as it indicates a violation of a different rule and please again bear in mind that I'm not advocating using any of these. The purpose of the question was to ask about better ways to communicate. Perhaps a different kind of signal vs. just the simple open hand. I can't think of any other violation that is left without any other distinguishing gesture.

If I am understanding you correctly (please make it clearer if I am wrong), there is a signal for a designated spot violation. You run your hand along the baseline or sideline, then signal the direction we are going. So there is already a signal, do not see whatelse could be done to make it clearer than it already is.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Grail
I agree whole heartedly that a travel signal is the wrong signal as it indicates a violation of a different rule and please again bear in mind that I'm not advocating using any of these. The purpose of the question was to ask about better ways to communicate. Perhaps a different kind of signal vs. just the simple open hand. I can't think of any other violation that is left without any other distinguishing gesture.

This violation DOES have a defined signal. On an old "National Federation Official Basketball Signals" card that I have handy, it is signal #17, "Free throw, designated spot, or other violation."

It starts with the open, raised hand. Then, a single finger pointing to the designated spot then sweeping the hand away from that spot.

That's pretty descriptive. Here's where the thrower had to be and here's what he/she did.

[Camron Rust]

I'm with about everyone else here...

Unofficial signals can be OK as long as they aren't conflicting or confusing.

The "Travel on a throw-in" is absolutely mis-leading signal. It perpetuates the myth that it is possible to travel on a throwin.

The block-tip can leave the crew with egg on its face when another official calls the foul. I think this signal should only be used well after the action and only in response to an inquiry from the coach. After 2-3 seconds, you can be certain that your partner is not calling a foul. And guess what, the coach just might not be disagreeable to start with making it unnecessary.

The not closely guarded signal that is often used, I think, is actually quite informative and helpful. It indicates to the coaches that you haven't forgotton to count, just that you judge the distance to great. I can't think of any potential confusion or mis-understanding that is possible here.

[Mark Dexter]

"Travel" signal - absolutely not - it's not a travel!

6 feet - I have mixed feelings - as long as you're looking at the players, that should be evidence that you haven't forgotten to start counting.

The tip - use with caution, and only in 2 situations:
(1) Ball OOB - everyone thinks it's off blue, but you saw white gently tip/touch the ball - indicate the direction of blue, then you might want to give a "tipped" signal. (Also helpful when changing an OOB call after discussing it with a partner.)
(2) The "no-call" - use this sparingly, and ONLY once rebounding action is done and, preferably, not until play has gone the other way.

[Kelvin green]

Here's my thoughts - NO way on the travel! Maybe a tip signal but the ball has to be almost the other way and it cant be overdone (like 1 or 2 times game max) and
No way on the 5 second one. You either count or you dont. ..When you count theyre within six feet wjhen you dont their not.

[bigwhistle]

The best time to legitimately use the "tip" signal is when the ball goes from front court to backcourt and the play originated in an area that was not the trail official's primary. The primary official can give this signal (if the T looks to him in time) in order to prevent an incorrect backcourt violation if the defense was the last team to touch the ball in the front court.

[AK ref SE]

I will normally use an unofficial signal only when the coach is questioning my call.
I once was in the habit of making the tip of the finger call on when I thought it was a clean block (that was almost preached in my association) until to many times Lead was saying clean block and trail was calling the foul.

AK ref SE

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by bigwhistle
The best time to legitimately use the "tip" signal is when the ball goes from front court to backcourt and the play originated in an area that was not the trail official's primary. The primary official can give this signal (if the T looks to him in time) in order to prevent an incorrect backcourt violation if the defense was the last team to touch the ball in the front court.

I like this one, too - with the all-important caveat of if the T looks to him in time.