End Of Game: NC State v. North Carolina
 

Okay with the no call or was that "serious contact" as stated by the announcer?

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Charge ...
 

In my high school game, I've got a player control foul.

I player for NC State was called for a player control foul earlier on a very similar play I believe. I'd like to see these two plays back to back and see how similar they were if at all.

Looks chargish to me...

PC. Offensive player lowered shoulder/initiated contact and denied the NC State player his spot on the floor.

APG, how about the play as the clock expired? Looks to me like UNC player got a fistful of NC State players arm as he was trying to gather the ball and shoot.

It does not matter the level.
 

That is a charge in my HS, college, AAU, wreck ball or middle school game.

Peace

Shoulder dip and displacement, I'd like to think I'd put a whistle on this one.

I had the defender flinging himself into Kendall Marshall and then falling to the floor.

But I do have a foul on UNC on the shot at the buzzer.

it's the ACC
 

Confession: I'm an "ABC" guy....

Carolina ALWAYS has and ALWAYS will get those calls in ACC games....

ok.... that's out of my system....

:confused:

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The initial view gets blurry at the time of contact...nothing I could do there but there's a good view from the baseline (yeah I said it ;))

where's the L?
 

Did the L close down or stay in the corner on that last play? I couldn't tell.

That is not a foul, that is the ball being knocked away. I would not have called a foul either on that final play.

Peace

+1
+1
Off-topic baseball thread?

By the way, a reporter sitting behind the NC State bench tweeted that Gottfried yelled for a charge on the play and Brian Dorsey replied by saying "Shut your f____ing a$$ up!"

Originally I was thinking PC but looking at the under the basket view I think the offensive player got his head and shoulders past the defender so subsequent contact would then be on the defense, so I think I would go block. Really close play though. I could go either way and be happy with it.

As for the second vid, that ball got knocked away from underneath. A clean strip.

Definitely a PC foul.

Ha...you call a block on that play and you won't even be working middle school games. :D

Well there are many HS officials (not about him personally) that call a block every they get a chance. So I am not sure about what he would work if he called it that way. Officials at the high school level (and other levels) love to penalize the defense when they are legal.

BTW, I saw nothing close in this play. It was a PC all the way if you are going to call anything.

Peace

I typically think that PC isn't called enough and is probably the right call on this situation, but no one really commented on the head and shoulders past the defense part. What do you think?

If you watched ESPN, they say too many are called.
 

How in the world is his head and shoulders beyond the defender?

All the contact was in the chest, not in the side of the shoulder. I think you are reading too much into the rule if that is your claim for a block IMO.

Peace

Ok. I'll concede. PC

Head and shoulders is a rule of thumb. There's no way I'm punishing a defender with position just because the dribbler turned himself into a pretzel.

Play starts in the T's area and moves into the L's primary area of coverage; not a secondary defender. L appears to have a wide/open look.

In plays like this that have happened to me in the past, if I'm the T and I don't stay connected to the play, I'm trusting the L will make the call....any call. During the pre-game, I tell my crew if a player(s) is on the floor we have to know why he is down there on the floor.

If an evaluator comes in after the game and asks what happened, the L is gonna have to "man-up" and explain his non-call. In any case, I'm gonna trust my partner that the "no-call" at that time was the right decision.

It's tough. I think it looks this way from the end line view because the contact already took place and the defender is falling backwards.

I didn't see the game but I respect Len Elmore as an analyst when it comes to the rules. Apart from the fact I thought it was a PC, if he says they put whistles on similar plays earlier in the game I'd like to think there would've been a whistle there as well.

Anyone hear what Digger Phelps said on Sportscenter after this game? It won't surprise anyone...

"Good officials in that situation let 'em play".

Wow. Just wow.

My favorite comeback to "let 'em play" was during last year's Butler/Florida game in the NCAAs between Len Elmore and Reggie Miller. SB Nation broke it down:

This is true. It was on the ESPN highlights. It was one of three quick fouls this player picked up in about a minute of play.

Given this call, it makes the decision of a no-call on the final UNC possession really disappointing.

Miller is still close to being a player. Elmore was a player and been removed from that part of the game a long time. Also he does not call NBA games like Miller, where it is sport to rip the officials for everything. Elmore is a lawyer and was a prosecutor. I am sure he looks at these things differently because of that background. Not that the rules are the same as law, but what is written can mean something. ;)

Peace

His legal background shows since he actually thinks before he reacts to situations. It might also contribute to his desire to know and understand the rules.

I also think the fact he was an NBA role player contributes to his comments as opposed to Miller being a HoF-calber shooter.

I thought he was gonna punch Fran Frashilla (sp)! Fran kept saying that by NOT calling the PC the officials were NOT letting the players decide the game bc there was good defense played. It got pretty heated and made me think more of Fran and less of Digger!
IMO you have to put that play and call/no call in context of the earlier similar play.

I'm gaining some respect for Fraschilla too. He's been pretty outspoken about seeing fouls called regardless of the situation. granted, he's not right all the time but at least he's willing to say it...unlike Doris "there are too many charging fouls" Burke.

You gotta let players decide the game!...until it affects my team!

Doesn't look like defender had LGP (to me). I like the no-call here.

Oh, so you will hang you partner(s) out to dry?

Play starts in your area, you will pass it off on someone whom may be working off ball looking for a secondary defender to come into the picture.

Then if an evaluator comes and question the call the L will have to "man up" How about the person where the play originated from "MAN UP" and say. I did not stay with the play until there was a change in status of the ball (pass, shot, or foul) have taken place.

Unbelieveable!!! IMO

In my opinion, the dribbler clearly initiates contact in order to create space so he can get off the shot. An obvious advantage is gained. It's a game-changer and a clear player control foul. Especially given the situation, someone has to have a whistle.

The unfortunate thing is that with the Hess ejections of a few weeks ago, the NC State fans are going to start talking about conspiracy. Obviously a bunch of baloney, but we all know it's coming. :(

I'm not sure I get this -- this decision is clearly in the L's primary and in the men's game I'd be shocked if they pregamed this as anything other than the L taking this all the way. Lead is king on these.

I've been in the same position on a play like this and it's not a trivial thing for the T to come all the way down there to grab that one.

Well Brian Dorsey didn't exactly help quell the conspiracy theorists at all...

Ignoring the commentary, what differences do you see (if any) between the calls in question on both ends of the floor?

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I'd be incline to side with you if there was a secondary defender entering the L's area. Can you tell me if there is one?

From what I see from the clip, the T has a "closed look" when the contact happens while the L has the best view with an "open look." If I'm the T, I'm gonna trust the L has the correct position to make the right decision. If I come in with a whistle after the no-call, chances are from my view as the T that I'd be guessing since the defender was moving backward playing defense before the contact happens.

Rich, The issue I have is. From my perspective we pass off the responsibility of plays which begins in our area. This is where the start, develop, finish comes into play. The official should mainitain it until the status of the play changes.

I cannot tell you that. If the T look is closed all he have to do is move his feet to maintain a positive look by stepping down towards the endline.

The L could also be thinking. I trust my T to stay with the play until the status change because it came from his area understanding the SDF concept.

For me, I stay with the play until the status change when it starts in my primary. I will also explain if questioned. The one thing I will not due is say a the L better "Man up" explain it.

The T does step-down (from the the first C to the second C on the ACC logo) but not enough. If anything, because he stepped down, his look became even more closed because the players moved in the same direction. I agree a step-down could help but he would need to go down to the FT line extended to see the play and with the speed of the play and the direction of the players, that just wasn't going to happen. The T could stay connected all he wants on this play, but from his position adjustment, he ended up looking through the UNC player's back when the contact happened.

The L, on the drive, widens out to get an open look the drive, which IMO, has the best look for a decision.

The term "man-up" is a term my conference supervisor used recently at our conference tournament. His philosophy is that the crew is a "team" with individual responsibilities. In a semi-final game, the crew should realize that each member is there because they can handle their business in their PCA and they can trust each other to make the right decision. If a high impact play happens in your PCA, you will have to "man-up" and explain your decision.

On this play, I can live with the L making a call or no call because I trust him. As long as he was in proper position to do so, which IMO, he was.

What about the C ??
 

Does anyone else think that C was in great position to get a look at this play? I know it's outside his PCA, but if you look at the video, he may have had the best angle of anyone on the crew. We always say we should stay in our own PCA unless it's an obvious foul or a game decider; in my opinion, this play was both.

Ok, I can live with that. I concur with you sir an official should be able to handle their business in their PCA. The only opposition would be if the play developed outside his PCA but finished in his PCA. I would trust the official whom area it came from take it and live with the call or no call.

My opposition was to your position that if an evaluator came in and question the play the L better "man up" and explain it. It should, IMO come from the person who the play originated from.

Good question, the C did have the better look and IMO should have extended over since majority of the action(players) were strong side.

I'll comment (w/o having read other responses). The first PC on NCSU was passed on by the Lead and called by the Trail who was straight-lined. And Kendall Marshall's play was also passed on by the Lead. So I say the Trail had no business putting a whistle on the NCSU PC foul.

On the 2 post plays: the NCSU post player put his shoulder into the defender. Zeller did absolutely nothing on his post play, the defender just fell down.

Actually snaqs, check out 10-6-8. Not a rule of thumb. just a rule.

And a case of you twisting it (like a pretzel) to meet a scenario where it doesn't apply, IMO.

Didn't say it was for this scenario. I changed my stance after watching it again, A1 lowered his shoulder. It is a PC. Just a friendly reminder that it is a rule and not a rule of thumb. I don't want others to be confused.

Ok, so it's a rule of thumb written into the rules. It states that fthe "greater responsibility" is with the defender, not the sole responsibility. It doesn't even just say "the defender is responsible for contact." It's a measuring stick.

And again, just because a dribbler/shooter is able to twist his body in a way that gets his head and shoulders past the stationary defender before his legs knock the defender to the floor does not mean I'm going to call the defender for a foul.

I agree with you snaqs 100%. I think I get your interpretation of the rules and agree more with you than anyone else on here.