T-worthy or not?
 

I read the article last night and I didn't see the video till this morning. I was expecting *something* from the player that got T'd up. Nope, still haven't seen even a bad reason for whacking him. Shame.

Didn't something similar (the T, not the action) happen to OJ Mayo a few yrs back and his HS went to court so he could continue to play.........

You really need a couple of more options. I would like to see more of the court to say "Are you kidding?"

Peace

From Wikipedia

In January 2007, Mayo allegedly assaulted referee Mike Lazo after being ejected from a Huntington High game vs. Capital High School at the Charleston Civic Center. According to West Virginia Secondary School Activities Commission rules, Mayo was suspended for two games. However, due to allegations supported by video evidence that Lazo had overreacted and faked the incident, a temporary restraining order was signed by Cabell County Circuit Court Judge Dan O'Hanlan, temporarily lifting the suspensions on Mayo and five other players suspended due to incidents at that game. However, shortly after, the restraining order was nullified and Mayo was suspended for three games, a punishment that Mayo described as "fair".

Agreed. I wouldn't go straight to "are you kidding?", but I may speak to the kid, if anything. Still, what are you doing by staring another kid down when you already have a T on the books?

Having seen that Mayo video, those "allegations" were not "supported by video evidence.". What a joke.

this is NOT a T. this was a poor call.

This one was in my backyard so to speak, and having viewed it a couple of times I agree with Bainsey. The first comment I said to my wife after having viewed it was that I would've talked to him but not whacked him for that. Having read the description of the play before seeing the video I thought we'd see something blatant where he dunked then stood there posturing while also staring the other team down. Didn't see that in the video. Don't know everything that led to that call, of course, so judgment is based solely on what you can see in the video.

All that being said, I'd like to hear more about the first double technical that was called. Was the ball at the disposal of the thrower-in when the call was made, or before? What made it a technical rather than common foul?

I've saw the video back when this was in the news. There was no "faking" by Lazo (that may not be the correct spelling of his name). Mayo most definitely earned his suspension. I was reading the WV blogs back then and no one really disputed what Mayo did, they instead were trying to justify Mayo's actions in response to "poor" officiating.

I can see the "staredown", but don't think it's T-worthy. I see what the official saw that triggered the call. I just don't think it's the appropriate call in that particular situation. JMO.

I'm gonna assume that the ball was not yet at anyone's disposal on the double-T. And if there was ongoing tension throughout the game then "staring down" may have been enough to warrant a T. There may have been a couple of other incidents where the officials warned players they were close to crossing the line.

There's another thread on our site about this where I posted part of another news story. Apparently the two teams had been trash-talking during the game so that obviously had something to do with it.

As for the double technicals, I've been looking for video but haven't found any to see whether that was handled correctly. I'm shocked nothing has been posted on YouTube by someone from either school.

Just watched the video. As stated by others, nothing that would be T-worthy in a vacuum. But we don't know what else has happened. Don't know his name, but I've been to a couple camps with the guy who called the 'T'. He is a college official who I know has access to some quality mentoring and training. So right now, until I hear any further details, I'm gonna assume he had good reason to pull the trigger at this point in the game.

Many Ts are not called in a bubble, they are called with consideration to other aspects of the game and previous events. It is possible that this was the most minor of his actions but he did not take heed to other warnings or being addressed.

Peace

For a state tournament game this call stunk. Period. Yes everyone has their own opinion...this is mine.

Maybe this official issued the T. Due to his stature, experience and reputation.

BNR and Jeff hit this on the head. Many T's (most, maybe) are not the result of a single action, but the accumulated actions of a player. We don't know, in a vacuum, if this kid had already been warned (possibly more than once) about the taunting. We don't know exactly why R called the earlier double-T, but the fact that they DID tells me there's a whole lot more going on than what is described in the article.

This maybe true. There could have been other situations leading up to this point.

It can also be assumed that the player was backpeddling to get into position on his team defensive posture and was looking to see where the ball is located. He was backpeddling!

I do like the mechanics that this official used.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought this guy was horrible or anything. But I'm not even certain he was really staring the guy down. In a situation like this, you'd really like a technical to call itself.

He was back-pedaling by the time the whistle was blown but before that he pushed the ball to the ground and then stared at his opponent.

And you do not see the reaction of the other player he dunked on. That might have made it clear what was going on.

Peace

You may be right Rich. But as with most plays like this it's hard to truly judge the official's actions without knowing all the variables that are in play. Could it be a bad 'T'? Sure. But I don't think we can judge its merits based solely on what we see in this video.

The best part of the OJ Mayo saga was that his one year of playing H.S. basketball in West Virginia was his fifth year of playing H.S. basketball.

Mayo was living Kentucky when he played one year for his high school's varsity basketball team while still in jr. high school which is permitted in Kentucky. The next year he moved to Cincinnati, Ohio, and enrolled as a freshmen in a high school in Cincinnati, where he played varsity basketball for three years. The OhioHSAA ruled him ineligible to play his senior year because he had used up his eight semesters of high school eligiblity (two in Kentucky and six in Ohio). He then moved to West Virginia, where the West VirginiaHSAA ruled that he had two more semesters of eligiblity left. I guess they use that "new fangled math" in West Virginia.

MTD, Sr.

BNR,

That very well could have been the case. A delay of game warning could have been an option.

The reaction I did see was two players attempting to get the ball after the dunk. A delay of game is my position.

Yep, they were in the video the entire time. Oh and when the whistle was blown, I bet you could see them off the camera too.

Peace

They Call It Ciphering ...
 

And they get to marry their first cousins.

This is taunting. The player gave the stare and postured up. However, is it enough for a T?
I would have to get a feel for the game before I say if this was justified. However, you need to be aware of who has a technical foul. I have been told by mentors and supervisors that the second T better be indisputable, and this one is debatable. As a first T I would not mind this. But a second, in playoffs, I would be looking to avoid this.
If the game goes into a brawl this kind of play would be scrutinized as not being called. If the official was seeing the game game getting out of hand then I can justify the call.
Most importantly what the hell is this kid doing? He already has a T and he is trying to show up the other team. Just get back on D!

What would you say to the player if you are saying there are ways to avoid calling the T?

Not only did the kid catch the ball and put it to the floor, he then "kicked" it off to the side. I honestly believe that the "kick" was inadvertent, but I wonder if that might have something to do with the T also? Were there DOG warnings given earlier? So much we don't know from this short clip.

:D. No, I couldn't. Telling by their posture in retrieving the ball to continue play. I will say they didn't seemed phased by it.

The whistle blew with only the "offender" in the video. So for you to say what they were phased by is kind of laughable.

Again, I have no problem if you feel this was not enough, but to then misrepresent what is actually in the video to fit what you wish would have happened. The opponents are mostly off camera a veteran should know that a lot of things are not what they seem on any video and certainly not a close shot of a play.

And as I said, most Ts are not called in a bubble. They are often called for previous actions that we might not know by a 10 second clip. We already know that this kid got a T for some altercation with another player. Then we have no idea what fouls looked like or what other trash talking took place. And maybe, just maybe, the official heard something.

I live by the statement, "I can defend a foul, I cannot defend a fight." A lot of subtle things take place that can lead to a fight.

Peace

Based on the limited info available to us I don't like the call AT ALL.

And I really don't like it coming from the C here who cannot see the kids face or eyes.

Rutledge,
I don't believe I misrepresented anything. You imposed a situation. I went back to look at the video and I answered it.

Honestly, I think it's extremely silly to "not like" this call. We have about 1% of the available information. If this was a vacuum, and the only play in the game, and nothing WE could not see from this angle happened, AND nothing we cannot hear in this video was said, I think all of us agree this is not a T.

Obviously there was SOMEthing else that we don't know - either verbal at the time, off camera, or previous to the video. It is disappointing to me to see how many people are calling this wrong, lacking most of the information, and not defaulting to the POV that the ref was right until proven to us otherwise.

You invented an answer and created actions and thoughts of players not even on the screen. Jeff is dead on here.

this had to have been an accumulation situation, that ref looks pissed when he calls it, like he's just seen the straw that broke the camel's back. And since he was behind and can't really see the kid's eyes or if he is staring, could it have been the DOG? It looks accidental but maybe it had been going on all game? Who knows. Tough situation for the kid not getting to play out the season.

Where's Marlee Matlin When You Need Her ???
 

Are any esteemed Forum members lip readers?

In another interview, Coach Boyd claims that... "he just stared at the guy"

Depending on the unknowns stated here, the "stare" could very well be justification for the technical.

There may be a video of me somewhere where I ejected a coach for doing nothing more than standing there coaching his team. No profanity, nothing even remotely directed at me or my partners. But yet the video would show me stop play, give the T, and send him off. I'm sure everyone who watched that short clip would say how bad it was I ejected that coach, for doing nothing even remotely unsporting. But what that short clip wouldn't show is the first T earlier in the game on that same coach for clear unsporting behaviour, and the 2 attempts prior to get him to stay seated. Almost bumping into him again along the sidelines made it any easy second T.

I agree the OP's clip doesn't show anything that seems to warrant the T by itself. But I'm not willing to pass judgement without seeing the rest of the game, to see what might've led up to that point. The fact that here are other stories that mention trash talking prior seem to back up my feeling that this might've been the final straw, rather than a stand alone act.

Wow!

You need to get some thicker skin, M&M! :D

But seriously...excellent post.

Now shutup.

No more cookies for you!

And I don't need GROUPTHINK to tell me that. :D

I heard some random football player last night on the radio trying to justify Bountygate by calling it GROUPTHINK. I had to laugh.

I agree there is no such thing as "all of a sudden" and to take this isolated play outside of the happenings of the game up to that point can't be accurately judged.

Happy 100th Birthday Oreos ...
 

America's favorite cookie, two simple wheels with a frosting middle, was first baked in New York in 1912.

I'm not second guessing an experienced official on this. The video shows the ejected player starting down the opponent. It wasn't prolonged, but it was there. As others have stated, there is a possibility that he was warned, or that collectively the teams and coaches were warned.

Is it possible that the state association had asked officials to be on the lookout for this sort of behavior and asked for strict enforcement during the tournament?

To some extent this reminds me of the football official in MA who threw a flag for taunting on a touchdown run in one of the MIAA Super Bowl games and then took heat for enforcing the rules for which he was instructed to have zero tolerance if the rule was broken.

I would assume, though that's always dangerous, that the players are instructed repeatedly by their coaches to avoid these scenarios.

Someone mentioned that this is a college official. Is it possible that the "Adams" instructions for behavior impacted the tolerace level for the infraction, even if only subconsiously?

Not T worthy. With that said, no one has seen what might have led up to the T. The ref might have had a hard time with him all night, warnings may have been levied and consequences may have been made clear to the player prior to the T after dunking. We cant be hatin on the ref based solely on this video.

I did not invent an answer at the 10 sec mark on the video you can clearly see 14 go after the ball when the whistle sounded. Upon further review of the video, The player was backpeddling and shaking his head east to west and this could be what the official seen as unsporting.

From the article:

According to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Mann was issued his second technical for taunting a North Gwinnett player after a dunk.

Given that statement as fact, I'm not looking at the video for any other reason for the technical foul call. The reporter would have verified that prior to writing his story.

+1

Are you serious? Who would the reporter have "verified" this with? No way did that official tell the reporter that information...

Are you giving the reporter the benefit of the doubt? :D

That's hilarious.

I would have liked to see the come from the L/new T since it appears they had a better look at a DOG or taunt. Also, would have liked to see the C move towards his partners after all was said and done at the table because it looks like he issued 2 T's and they could have gotten everything sorted out.
Also, would like more info on the players behavior prior to the incident.

Just looking at the 30 seconds of video I can't say I agree with the T, but given we only have 30 seconds of a 32 minute game and we don't know what else is going on (and no I'm not taking a newspaper account as gospel in this case as to what happened before this video) and in absence of that I'm going with the refs on the court....

I would like to believe there was a build-up (warnings etc...) before this particular T was issued.

While the official may not have spoken, I think it's a safe bet that the AJC reporter interviewed either coaches/AD or players to get the official explanation of the ejection. On the other hand, I know nothing of the AJC and their journalistic integrity. I would hope they fact check their stories and use multiple sources before going to press. On the other hand, maybe journalism has gone out the door as in so many other places.

Reading the comments on the original AJC story provides some context, though it all has to be taken with a very large grain of salt.

If I did this properly this link is to the AJC story and not the Yahoo report that was linked previously.

Milton coach miffed over Mann’s ejection; Georgia signee can’t play in semifinals for final | Prep Zone: High School Sports

Even a good journalist can be given bad information. I've just found it very tricky when it comes to getting the "official" word on in-game situations. Coaches and players often mis-hear or mis-interpret information. We all know that happens a lot based just on what goes on in our own associations.

That's the post that finally convinced me to put you on ignore. Long overdue...

This is from another newspaper account of the game...
 

It's from NorthFulton.com, a county site in GA

"The second technical was whistled after a Mann fast break dunk against Norcross standout Chris Bolden, who was one of the top players on the Norcross team that upset Milton in last year's championship game.
After the dunk, Mann glared at Bolden, who had been engaging in two-way trash talk with Milton players during the game."

LOL!!!

Peace

That article says nothing about why the player was ejected. It just gives the coach whining about what he doesn't think his player did. So there is no verification of anything here...

Even if the coach had said something along the lines of "He (the referee) told me..." it still would not be verification of anything. Using what one aggrieved party claims someone else said is not verification.

Exactly. I had to file a report this year about a dispute with some events with a school (AD and Principal) and the coach clearly misrepresented to his AD what I said to him directly in an explanation about a kid that got a T that resulted in his 5th foul. They literally tried to explain it away by saying he said "freakin" to me directly instead of the other word that starts with the same letter. Not only did the coach ask me what happened, I told him word for word what his player said so that there would not be any confusion. And that was in a report to the state, not a newspaper or media member.

I tend to not trust anything a coach says when they are trying to justify behavior of their players and sometimes themselves.

Peace

I hate how officials can jump to a conclusion that a call like this is right or wrong. There could have been a lot leading up to this incident and this pushed it over the end. Why question a fellow official? He is there for a reason.

-Josh

Eh, I'm not a fan of the "striped wall." I despise it in other professions and there's no reason not to have a discussion to try to make us better officials.

I respect that, and would not defend officials blindly across the board... but hanging these guys out by assuming this is a bad call (or the two posts that would have liked to see the T from a different official ... ) is patently unfair - we weren't there, we have extremely minimal information AND some of the information we do have comes from an extremely biased source.

As a state clinician and president of an association and board member of other groups, I do not like to look at things through a narrow point of view as well. There are a lot of good teaching points from this play and I would have asked the official several questions as to why they came to this conclusion. There answer would tell me more than what I thought I saw.

Peace

I wonder who edited the entry.

You'll find yourself rolling your eyes less often.

You gotta wonder why this player was in the game to begin with? He had gotten one technical already and the game wasn't in doubt. Especially, if as some have suggested, considering he might have had a couple of questionable actions before the actual T was issued.

So either the coach thought his player could continue to push the limits or this was an isolated incident and the referee called a quick one.

They were up 42-35 when the kid was tossed, with over 14 minutes remaining in the game.

Since when are Players, Coaches, and ADs the experts on the Rules? :eek:

MTD, Sr.

Since reporters could be counted on to get the facts straight before printing an article.