Hot dog player talking
 

Had the state final for boys Christian School over the weekend. The captain of Team A apparently sensed the need to provide commentary following the first couple of whistles that went against him. Probably should have stopped it after the initial incident, but it was low-key, not showing anyone up, and more like an everyday grumble than anything else. The second one was more audible and demonstrative than the first. I had the foul and went by him on the way to the table and told him I didn't want to hear any more. It worked and we had a good game after that. One of my partners who is a pretty decent mentor suggested that I should NOT have gone to the player, instead, after reporting the foul, gone to the coach and let him handle it. I defended my actions on the spot, but today I am thinking he may have had a better technique. I'd really like to hear how you guys prefer to handle this situation.

Frankly, it depends. There are lots of times I communicate directly with players, and telling one that he's questioning too much and needs to watch his step going forward is something I've certainly done many times. I've also just gone to the coach with it.

If it's anything approaching what you might term a "formal warning" to the player I always try to communicate to the coach that I've done it.

If you mention to the coach that he might want to speak to #32 about the Addressing the player directly could be effective, but addressing his actions to the coach can be MORE effective. Don't beat yourself up about it--learn from it.

I have no problems addressing a player. We do it all the time: "out of the key", "don't carry" - dribbler with no pressure, etc. This one is no different.

I think 3x in my career has a coach said "don't address my player". My response is that we're instructed to be preventative where possible.

talk directly to the player...THEN talk directly to the coach. Tell the coach to address it w/ his player and that if you have to deal w/ the same player again - it's a T.

That way, if/when you do have to whack the kid....the coach knows why and "should" put up less of a fight about it....

"Coach, I talked to #23 about it. I told you to talk to #23 about it....and he STILL did it - you BOTH were warned."

I wouldn't paint yourself into a corner with this threat. Just ask the coach to help you, or remind the player to keep his head. Skip the 'next time it's a T' part. JMO, of course.

Just remember that you "promote what you permit".....

Also remember that you back yourself into a corner with threats.

A warning that the behavior is unacceptable is sufficient, unless the coach has a wood block for a head.

You must be responding to someone else, because I didn't say anything about permitting or ignoring the behavior.

As Rich noted, you can tell them the behavior isn't acceptable without backing yourself into a corner by threatening the coach.

I talk to both most of the time, what you did is very common and appropriate for the situation described.

Not exactly the response I was looking for...
 

Last regular season varsity assignment of the year. This is the third time I've had the team this year (twice at home, once on the road). Early in fourth and a player is grousing at me after I call the foul on him (just like we're discussing above) and so, after reporting, I turn to his coach and let him know he needs to talk to #45, because it's not appropriate.

Coach's response to me (in referring to his player): He's right. That other kid's been jacking him around the whole game.

Your move ... then I'll tell you what I did.

I'd probably whack the player and then tell the coach I gave him a chance to take care of it.

This is exactly one of the main reasons I don't talk to the coach about a player unless they ask me. When I talk to a player about their comments, the whole gym can see that it is not a happy chat and I mean business! Even the coach can tell that storm clouds are brewing.

Me: "Coach, I will watch for that. In the meantime, you can take care of your player or I can. It's up to you."

And then walk away from him/her.

If coach deals with that kid, then we are ok. If coach doesn't, then the next time that player complains to anyone on the crew, I will assess the T.

+1

rockyroad: Pick A Prize From The Top Shelf ...
 

Wow. What a rational, thoughtful, and appropriate response. Are you sure that you wanted to post it here on the Forum? I don't think that such responses are allowed here, especially from tree hugging, medical marijuana smoking, hippies from the Pacific Northwest.

Them's fighting words, Billy!

I had to check with snaqs, JAR and bbr first to make sure the "group" was in agreement with my post.:p

Bonus points for Rocky
 

Coach got a one-hand stop sign. "I hear you, but he's done talking. That's enough." ... and then I was on my way to the other end of the floor.

I have to think the longer I do this, the more coaches I'll see and remember which ones to address this kind of situation with and which ones to just talk to their players instead. Maybe it's different every game. Would love to continue to hear your thoughts.

For the record, we didn't hear a peep out of either of them the rest of the game: coach or player.

Is there any way to really do this wrong?

Warn either one if you want:

To the player: Not another word.

To the coach: I've heard enough from your #32, coach.

But this, of all things, does not necessarily require any warning at all. If he says too much, T him up.

Lots of talk here about "A little from Batman, nothing from Robin." The player is a couple of notches below Robin.

A Classic Forum Metaphor ...
 

Not here. What forum have you been reading? It's not Batman, and Robin. It's the organ grinder, and his monkey.

Billy, have you considered a sedative?

That is signature material right there.

The Evergreen State ...
 

Exactly which part of my post do you have a problem: Tree Hugging, Medical Marijuana Smoking, or Hippies?

Pick one and I'll apologize.

Also, Happy Birthday tomorrow.

When The Cat's Away, The Mice Will Play ...
 

I may have forgotten to take my medication this morning.

The new computer at my work station has internet access, and my supervisor left early for the day. I either feel like a "kid in a candy store", or a "bull in a china store".

I can't believe how many esteemed Forum members are on at this time of the day. Don't any of you work for a living? When fans yell, "Don't quit your day job", they really have no idea, do they?

Be careful....RichMSN and Snaqwells with think you're "backing yourself into a corner" if you do that....:)

Nope. I'm fine with this verbiage. No direct threat.

Adult Beverages After The Game Are On Me ...
 

If I got a dollar every time I've said this to a coach over thirty-one years, I'd be a very rich man today. Sometimes I actually meant it. Wait? I can't lie. A few times I actually meant it.

What I've found that works numerous times is to actually watch specifically for a certain event that a coach believes is affecting his team - every time.

When I am able to back up my call or non-call with a step by step prognosis of what happened, I dare say all coaches have accepted my judgement without question.

Hmmmm...I can't read minds, but I don't think they will think that.

But then, maybe they have decided to kick me out of the "group think" group and haven't told me yet! :eek:

All 3 - since none of them apply to me.

And my birthday is in July, but thanks anyway!

I'm Deeply Sorry If I've Offended Any Pacific Northwesterners ...
 

Then I apologize three times over. Isn't Washington's birthday tomorrow?

Nope...11-11-1889.

And apology accepted...unless the group says I can't accept it.

If that's how you took it, you obviously don't understand what they were saying.

Never use ultimatums... "Not one more word, coach..." or "Next time is a T". There's no need to threaten, and the ultimatum puts you in the position of backing up your word when something happens that you MIGHT have let slide had you not dropped the threat.

Or, "Coach, he forfeited your right to bring that up right now when he pulled that stunt."

Me too, although I am questioning whether two cents is enough for a good reading education.

Well, I already changed mine.

what is this.... some sort of political discussion where liberal and conservative commentators are ridiculously parsing words to extract an obfuscated meaning that belies the original intent of the message?....

what's the difference between: "Next time is a T" or "Next time I will take care of it myself"?

the answer: nothing.

btw, what you've described as an "ultimatum", is simply an official telling a coach/player that the behavior in question is unacceptable and then explaining the consequence that will occur if/when the behavior is repeated.

that is EXACTLY the same formula used in the rulebook (i.e. if you travel...the other team gets the ball....).

You just described every member of the Oregon legislature. :rolleyes:

I don't use some of the verbiage that has been mentioned, but every official is different and I think our normal personalities should come out. I always use the Patrick Swayze approach: Be nice, until its time not be nice.

I will use: "Coach, can you please ask number...", "Coach, please don't yell across the floor at my partner", "Coach, please put your arms down"

After that, they are about to deal with the "T" in Tomegun. Ironically, I probably gave less Ts this year than in several past years. My crew, on the other hand, was giving them out like candy on Halloween.

Yes, that is a Roadhouse reference. :D

Funny, same thing that happened to me. In past years, I'd assess about 80% of the TFs in my games and wonder if it was just me. This year, I'm guessing it's about 20% and I'm wondering, again, if it's me.

Eh, the season's winding down. Only 8 more games to go.

But a huge difference between those and, "Coach, you might want to speak to number 23. He is getting a bit too demonstrative."

The message is the same without saying that a T will be the next call.

*awaits the return of Costello's partner*

In this case, when I say crew I'm talking about the twenty something officials that are part of my crew. We have 10 crews for basketball that handle from freshmen up to varsity.

I'll take the blame for not being clear.

Frankly, you're right, there's no real difference between these two.

I don't recommend either, for the same reason I don't recommend telling coaches in the pregame meeting that you're going to be watching for hand checks, or that you'll try to talk the kids out of the lane.

You tell a coach "next time it's a T," and then the next time is something really miniature and you decide to ignore it, for whatever reason, then your credibility is gone. Alternatively, you end up ringing up a kid when he turns around wrong, or when he yells something to his coach.

Just ask him to deal with it, no need to even insinuate that next time you'll have anything; it should be implied. The coach gets it, and if he doesn't, he will when you ring Johnny up. I tend to simply tell the coach that there's a problem brewing and let them deal with it as they see fit.

As I said when I started down this path, this is just my recommendation. If threatening a T works for you, good. Some can successfully use a stop sign, due to regional and personality differences. I haven't been able to.

Blue Line All The Way Around ...
 

Do you not do this before, or after, you don't ask for speaking captains?

P.S. I worked with my best, by far, partner of the year last night. Great calls. Great game management. Great communication. The whole enchilada. He's one of our top officials, and he will work girls state tournament games starting next week. He was the referee, of course, and during his pregame meeting he asked for speaking captains, asked their numbers, and asked if they would be starting. If I had my hardest game of the season tomorrow, I would work with him again it in a heartbeat. Some veteran officials have some real quirky habits. Quirky habits don't mean that they're not great officials, they're just great, and quirky, officials.