Any call?
 

Im a frequent visitor and am not privvy to any rulebooks. Saw this sit at a wreck league game yesterday and was curious.

Player goes up for a try. Defender comes in and the player brings the ball down to around his waist, and drops the ball just before he landed.

Before the player touched the ball again the official called a travel.

Im pretty sure that travel was not the correct call at that instant.

Whether this matters or not, the player did not push the ball down toward the court to begin a dribble. He had his hands on each side of the ball and dropped it.

Can the player continue on with a dribble?

As I understand the OP it is a violation. Once the pivot foot leaves the floor the player may only shoot or pass. Dropping the ball constitutes a traveling violation. Someone else will be along and give you the rule citation and quote it for you.

And the rule citations are...
 

NFHS 4-44-3

After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a *dribble.

and

NCAA 4-72-4
After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b. The pivot foot shall not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.

It's a travel only if dropping the ball starts a dribble. But it's not a dribble until he touches the ball again: until then, it might be a pass, which is legal. Too soon to whistle the violation.

Official was wrong, I've got nothing on this play. Player dropped ball while both feet are off the ground. Now if he were the first to touch the ball after dropping it, we would then have a violation.

AS the OP is described, I agree. But, if the official judged the player didn't drop the ball until he returned to the floor, or judged that the player pushed the ball down to start a dribble, ...

Bob,

The ball was dropped while still in the air without a doubt.

I talked to the official after the game, he thought it was a violation for dropping the ball.

So next ?
Violation if he tries to start a dribble after jumping

I will edit to add,

READ THE RULE DUMMY, I see the answer to my question........ no wonder you guys get so aggravated

Us, aggravated? Shocked I tell ya! Shocked I am! ;)

Dropping it could be a pass or dribble. I'd wait to see what happens next before whistling.

The rule says otherwise.

4-15-1

He does not have to touch the ball a second time for it to be considered a dribble.

As an official, you have to make a judgment as to whether it was a dribble or a pass. In this situation, where he is obviously trying to avoid returning to the floor with the ball, in my judgment I have the start of a dribble. I've yet to ever see a player make a pass to a teammate by dropping the ball at his own feet.

We've had this argument a couple of times, and I was the only one on this side of the argument.

The only way to know if it is a start of a dribble, is if it bounces from the floor back up to the ballhandler, without touching or being touched by another player.
Think of a player intercepting a pass, in his backcourt, and with a clear path to his basket, he throws, bats, pushes the ball, way out in front of him, to start the dribble. He may take several steps, before contacting the ball, again. When he does get to the ball, if he bats the ball to the floor, it's a dribble. If he catches the ball, it's the end of the dribble. If another player gets to the ball, first, it's just a pass, or an itercepted pass/turnover.

Other than Meadowlark Lemon, of course.:D

So what was the verdict - 2 against the world, or is it truely the start of a dribble?

No verdict, but I agree with Tony. The official must judge it. Sometimes, that judgement is delayed (or changed) to see what else happens. Sometimes, it's instantaneous.

My judgement (for what it is worth). I did not think it was the start of a dribble, he dropped the ball to keep it from being a violation. It definately wasnt a shot, definately not a pass (only defenders around him).

Who You Gonna Call ???
 

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

BBR,
I understand your point.

In this exact case, where you stated that his intention was to not commit a violation, I dont see your point of stating it is the start of a dribble!
I honestly believe he was trying to not turn the ball over, not starting a dribble. I think he knew he couldnt do anything at that point, other than drop the ball.

You understand my point.

You don't see my point of stating it is the start of a dribble.

So which is it, you see my point or you don't?

ok you got me

I guess I should have just asked you a question.

Would you ever judge his intention to be, to keep from turning the ball over, and not judge a violation? Again, I dont believe his intention was to start a dribble, It was like he knew that that was his only option (to drop the ball) to keep from turning the ball over.

Doubtful.

By rule, it is a dribble the moment it leaves his hands....but we sometimes can't tell unless/until they touch the ball again.

From United State Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart ...
 

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it."

I know it when I see it, and I'm not calling an illegal dribble violation until he touches the ball after it hits the floor.

Tony can always tell. ;)

Your options:
Dribble, pass, shot, or fumble. It can't be anything else by rule.

I would actually be a lot more inclined to wait in this case. Was the original intent of the player to dribble? No. He went up to shoot and was prevented from doing so. His only option was a quick release and hope that a nearby teammate might bail him out. In the other example recently given, a player who has used his dribble obviously forgets, starts a move to the basket by pushing the ball straight to the floor, and the ball is then contacted by a defender. Is this a violation? It definitely is to me.

I can always tell what I'm going to call.

I sure hope you can.