Against the rules or not?
 

Two separate situations occurred at a game I was at last night and I was wondering whether their is a basis for the officials actions in the rules (I would hope so, but in an admittedly brief look-through of the rules this morning, I couldn't find any)....

I was sitting directly behind the scorers table and so heard the officials and coaches conversations clearly.

1. Prior to the game, the teams are warming up at their respective ends of the court. One team leaves the court to return to the locker room. The other team then runs several "laps" of full court warmups. Officials Actions: Warned the head coach that this was against the rules and that it needed to stop immediately or a technical foul would be assessed. Is this accurate?

2. Throw in situation along the baseline in a situation where the player is not allowed to run the baseline. Player A1 is given the ball by the official and makes a legal inbounds pass, but remains standing out of bounds for several seconds after the pass. When A1 finally moves to obtain inbounds status, the official calls a violation and possession is given to team B. Officials response to Head Coach of Team A was "He didn't make a move soon enough and just stood there". Is there anywhere in the rules that stipulates that the throw-in player must make an immediate effort to return inbounds or that there is a time limit?

Thanks for the help.

Tony

#1. Officials were correct. Players are not allowed to run laps around the opponents end of the court during warmups.

#2. Officials were partially correct. By rule, the action should have been a technical foul, if the official determined they delayed returning intentionally.


Rule 10-3
A player shall not:

ART. 2

Purposely and/or deceitfully delay returning after legally being out of bounds.

Question 1: True
Question2: incorrect, for the Thrower-in, he/she must come directly onto the court. Rule 10.3.2 states such act is a Technical

First one can be considered unsporting and can be deemed a technical.

Second one is also correct. No time parameters are given, but if a player is not making an effort to enter the playing court has committed this violation. Generally you will only see this call if he delays his entrance because he has to wait for a screener or something like that. If he just spaced out and wasn't part of the play, this generally doesn't get called.

Sorry correct the penalty as a technical in the second case. If the delay was deceitful.

Violation beats 2 & the ball :D

Let me take this in a slightly different direction. If, after inbounding the ball, the thrower stays OOB and runs to the opposite side of the lane where he then steps in bounds, do we have a T or a violation? In other words, has he delayed returning, or is he in the process of (illegally) returning?

Ok, I see the rule now on the OB play. Looks like the team got off easy as it was just called a violation. Didn't look like he "spaced out" but more so he was waiting to see which way the ball went after inbounding to decide which way to go.

I'm still not clear what rule basis is used for the first one. "Laps" was maybe an incorrect term to use. The team ran several fast break drills, and the opposing team was nowhere in site during this.

Thanks for the quick replies

Tony

Ah, totally different situation. If this happens in my game, I'm just telling the team to get on its own side of the court.

I think we were envisioning one team already on the floor, and the other team entering the floor by circling the team already on the floor.

EDIT: OK, maybe not totally different, but I'm warning before I whack in this situation.

Stay In Your End
 

Using the opposing team's court when they are not using it is fobidden by our state. It's a POE this year. Ran into two coaches this year who said, "I've never heard of that!" (A: "Did you listen during the pre-season mandatory coaches' rules meeting?") and "No one ever stopped us from doing that before...here it is the middle of February and you're gonna enforce that???" (A: "Yes, but we're not going to enforce three seconds, held balls, number of players on the court, or contact fouls because, after all, we saw someone earlier in the season who wasn't enforcing them....")

2011-2012 POE
Pregame Situations. Teams entering the gymnasium prior to the contest should not run through the area occupied by the opposing team or under the basket where opponents are warming up.
Teams should only enter, jog or warm-up on their own half of the court. Gatherings intended to motivate a team after the warm-up period, during or following player introductions and post-game celebrations should be performed in the area directly in front of the team bench. If during the pregame or half-time warm-up period one team leaves the floor, the other team should not use the entire court; teams should only warm-up on their half of the court.


10-3-2

Purposely and/or deceitfully delay returning after legally being out of bounds.

10.3.2 SITUATION A:

A1 has the ball out of bounds for a throw-in. A1 completes the throw-in to A2 and then purposefully delays his/her return by taking four or five steps along the end line prior to coming inbounds behind a screen set by A3 and A4. A1 gets a return pass from A2 and takes an unchallenged try for goal.

RULING: A1 is charged with a technical foul for purposefully delaying his/her return to the court following the throw-in. A1's movement out of bounds along the end line was to take advantage of the screen and return to the court in a more advantageous position.

I've never heard a coach direct his team to use the entire floor during warmups when the other team is elsewhere.

The kids don't know the rules. Warn first.

I have, but this at one time was considered no a big deal or unsportsmanlike. But if a team did this I would just direct them to their side of the court and move on. Just like if a kid got on the other side of the division line I would not go crazy over it either. Heck players often go to the other side of the court to retrieve a ball that got away during warm-ups.

Peace

True story!
Sometime they may even want to go back to their bench for a sip of water.

Sorry, just lurking here. You guys are great and I think many a coach would benefit from reading your rule interpretations and insights.

BTW, in rugby, a sport that I both coach and referee, the prohibition of running onto the other team's side of the pitch during warm-ups is not codified, but it is certainly understood by players and coaches to be very, very bad form.
David

2011-2012 POE
Pregame Situations. Teams entering the gymnasium prior to the contest should not run through the area occupied by the opposing team or under the basket where opponents are warming up.
Teams should only enter, jog or warm-up on their own half of the court. Gatherings intended to motivate a team after the warm-up period, during or following player introductions and post-game celebrations should be performed in the area directly in front of the team bench. If during the pregame or half-time warm-up period one team leaves the floor, the other team should not use the entire court; teams should only warm-up on their half of the court."


This is PERMITTED in Minnesota.

Even Steven ...
 

Suggested rule change: Should be a violation. It's a violation to step off the court. It should be a violation, not a technical foul, to stay off the court.

Very common (meaning I'd see it in the Chicago area 8 - 10 times a season)up until, well, this year.

That's interesting. Other MN rules:


Minnesota Rule Modifications for Basketball
(Updated December 1, 2011)

A) All varsity basketball games will be played as two eighteen (18) minute halves. Three full time outs and two thirty second time outs per game.

B) In Minnesota home wears dark uniform and visitors wear white uniforms.

C) Games below the varsity level must also be played in halves with a maximum time of sixteen (16) minutes.

D) A 35-second shot clock may be used in non-conference games if both schools agree and teams and officials are notified at least one week prior to the game. Coaches and officials must file a report with the League office after any game that uses a shot clock. The form can be found on the League website.

E) Minnesota does allow teams do use the entire court for warm-up when the other team leaves the floor.

F) Mercy Rule: When the point differential reaches 35 points or more, with less than nine minutes to play, the clock will go to running time. The clock will only be stopped for time-outs (team or official). Regular timing rules will be used if the point differential drops back to less than 30 points.

It Takes Me Out Of My Game ...
 

This is the Connecticut prep school rule. It screws me up every time. Bonus on the scoreboard? Score on the scoreboard? Home coach? Visitor coach? I've got a prep school game coming up on Saturday and I'm freaking out already, just thinking about it.

Common-sense tactic to truly keep warm up there? :D

Oh, THAT Minnesota
 

Isn't that the same state that elected a washed-up professional wrestler as governor? :D

(I shouldn't laugh...was living there when they did) :o

Billy, I would strongly object to this being downgraded to just a violation. I have relied on this call to be my ace-in-the-hole when engaged in a 'Referee's Liar's Poker' competition. You know, where the most outrageous call of the game wins an adult beverage. Very useful in keeping your interest up in a blow-out...

Another Referee's Liar's Poker Happy Winner ...
 

Last weekend I had a partner, a forty-five year veteran official, call a swinging-the-elbows violation. After the game, I asked him, "What did you do, pull that one out of your *ss?"

This should have been the last post in the thread. :)

I have no problem with a warning. But to say that coaches don't direct their teams to do these types of things is crap. Just because you don't hear it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I'll see your swinging-the-elbows violation and raise you simultaneous BI and GT!!! Game on.....

I'll raise you "three seconds and two untucked jerseys!"

Weak:p

Typical JV game....

Punching the ball, flopping T, face guarding, and 10 second violation.....on a FT shooter.

Read 'em and weep...four Ts... elbow locking, player lifting, a team with numbers 0 and 00, and taunting after the fourth quarter horn.

Winner, Winner Chicken Dinner
 

#32 Blue, smoking a stogie and chewing a plug of Red Man while pulling out his jersey to wipe juice from his chin. Standing at FT line waiting to shoot FT where 14 Blue was the foulee!!! Gives finger to opposing bench...

I had this -- I swear I counted to 17 and he still wasn't going to shoot, before I called it!:cool:

You must work in the mountains.

I was going to suggest a couple of different states but in all of them, simplying saying the mountains was sufficient.

I went there without verbalizing it. :D