I'm taking the test tomorrow night. I'm still coaching, but I thought I could make some supplemental income in the offseason. I have to score a 75 on the Part I test. They sent me the 2001-02 test to practice and I got an 86. (I don't get a score for court presence, however! :D)
Any advice? Most of my misses were in the first few sections, definitions and the like, so I'm going to reread rules 1 and 10 today. |
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Only advice I have is to move to Michigan where testing is unecessary. Good luck. mick |
Now Mick...
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I took a test in Michigan once. In 1982... |
Re: Now Mick...
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21 years ago! Why did you take it? You vets have all the fun! mick |
Not much advice here, Coach. I would say to study up on the definitions, especially of BI and GT. Other than that, relax. You'd probably pass even without studying, just by reading the board for the last year. Good luck to you!
Chuck |
If a small quiz is a quizzical.......
......then what's a small test?
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I have one.
Always consider the actual wording of the rulebook. NF tests tend to ask questions with on word wrong and will consider it false, even if it makes sense to the test taker. So you almost have to really understand the actual wording, to do well.
Peace |
Re: I have one.
Rut - when you said "I have one", were you answering my question? :D
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Uh, Rut....
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<HR> What d'ya have when you have one great big green ball in one hand and another great big green ball in the other hand? |
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Happy, or mad, you got him where you want him. |
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Not necessarily the case.
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Perhaps, some of that weird stuff happens less than once every ten years. And some officials review their answers and make 'em right in their minds. mick |
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You would be surprised.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
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Peace |
A test question from the latest issue of REFEREE Magazine--
How many basic components of the principle of verticality are there in the rule book ?? If you know this one without "peeking" looking in the rule book, you will ace your test. To see if your answer is correct, see Rule 4 Section 44. |
TEST
JRutledge is correct, be careful when reading the questions. The test is more like and english test rather then officating test.
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But, I've been like the rest of you since then! :( |
In addition to other problems with the test, I have a serious objection to the way the test is scored. Under the current system points are scored for getting questions right and there is no penalty for missing a question. This means that you should never leave a question blank, and that if you are just blindly guessing, you should theoretically get half of those guesses right (since it is a True/False test).
Now consider an association that requires an official to score a 75 to work games. So how many questions does the official actually have to know (then just guess on the rest with an expectation of getting credit for 50% of those) in order to expect to pass? The answer is a lowly 50! He nails 50, then flips a coin on the remaining fifty and gets 25 giving him his required 75. My point is that the coach is right, 75 is very low. But it is far worse than he realized. He was likely thinking, "Hey, I could get 75 of these in my sleep." But he forgot that he would also get an additional 12 or 13 points for the 25 that he didn't know, just by guessing, putting his score up around 88. So coach, be very afraid of officials who only score in the 70s, they only know about half of the stuff on the rules test, and yet we are sending them out to work your games. My cynical belief is that the only purpose of the test is to allow an association to say that they do have a certification proceedure and that such and such an official did pass with a score of whatever, in the event of a lawsuit. In short, they are covering their own a$$es. If we cared enough to fix the problem, the solution is simple. Score the test as follows: +1 for a right answer, 0 for a question left blank, and -1 for an incorrect answer. This would eliminate the guessing problem, since every incorrect guess would cancel out a correct one. The result will be a much more accurate evaluation of what that official knew on the test. Those of us who score in the high 90s now, would continue to score there, but for those who don't put any time into studying the rules it would really show in their scores. |
Gees!
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Regardless of the test scores and other requirements to officiate high school basketball, this remains a game. :rolleyes: |
and to add my 2 cents
Congrats coach - I hope you pass.
The bad thing about PA is once you pass with a score of 75 or better, you never have to take the test again. Just keep sending in your money each year and you are a bonafide basketball referee. Over time, myths turn into rules in the minds of the "veteran" officials. In my chapter, I cannot tell you the number of times we get crazy notions voiced for discussion. Most of the time, these guys don't believe the correct answer and it shows in the games they call. And it is the Vets that keep getting the vasity and playoff games. Half of my chapter still doesn't believe the ball is dead after a made basket! even after reading aloud the rule from the book in the meeting ... "It really doesn't mean *that* because the clock is still running." If I could change one thing, it would be to have retesting on a periodic basis. |
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In thoery, no one who scores less than 100% should be allowed to officiate because there are obviously things they don't know. But this is reality, isn't it? |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
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Doctor. Now that's reality. ;) |
Re: Gees!
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Peace |
They make the test harder than what is needs to be by the way they word the questions, and then you find yourself second guessing yourself.
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First, I have a math degree. Second, I live in Nevada. So if you want to talk probability and gambling, I'm your man. Unfortunately, you are not right in saying that my stance is incorrect. Here's why: What you said above about the score of a single person taking the test has merit, but your claim is terribly misleading. You are saying that if we give a bunch of officials only the answer sheet and let them just guess T or F, that their average score will approach 50% as the number of officials that we do this with gets bigger and bigger. That is absolutely true. However, you are also saying that if we select only one of these officials at random and look at his score that his score could be very far from 50%. You even used 100% as your example. This is the part of your claim that is misleading. While this is theoretically possible, it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY. This is due to the normal distribution of the "Bell" curve and the fact that the vast majority of scores are within a standard deviation or two of the mean. Doing this is exactly the same as flipping a coin 100 times and recording the result. The official now uses Heads = true and Tails = false to fill in his test answers. The chance that someone could score 100% on the test doing this is one-half to the 100th power. That number microscopic! However, above you said, "In theory it is very possible for a person to guess on every T/F question and get 100% correct." Sorry, but no. It is certainly not "very possible." It is in fact, ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE. (This is why casinos make so much money. Ever play roulette?) Actually, there is the same probability that the official will miss all the questions and score a ZERO. These outlier values occur with such small frequency that we can basically ignore them. That is the whole basis of the theory of probability. So all of this supports my claim that an official should expect to get roughly half of his guesses right on the test. Yes, some officials will get more than half right and others will get fewer, but it won't vary that much from the 50% figure. For an example, with some hard numbers to back me up, if you give the test to 256 officials and each of them guesses on exactly 8 questions, you would only expect 1 official to get all 8 of his guesses correct. If each official guessed on 10 questions, you would have to give the test to 1024 people in order to expect a single person to get all 10 guesses correct. For 30 guesses, that number jumps to 1073741824. How many officials do you think we need to test before someone would correctly guess all 100 questions? The answer is 2 to the 100th power. A huge number. Now remember, my problem is not with those officials who need to guess on only 10 questions (due to wording problems and some technical definitions most of us have a few guesses), but those who are so lacking in rules knowledge that they have to guess on about half of the test. To get a hard number that we can work with let's say 50. If an official is guessing on fifty questions, his chance of nailing all of them is 1 in 2^50 (which I believe is a 16 digit number). However, he has about a 50% chance of getting either 23,24,25,26,or 27 of those guesses right and an 88% chance of scoring between 20 and 30 correct. So he can basically add a safe +20 to his score by guessing. Therefore, someone who knows only 50% of the stuff will look like he knows over 70%. That is not helpful for evaluating an official. Therefore, the scoring of the test is misleading because the scores not only don't reflect your officiating ability, they don't even accurately approximate your rules knowledge! Mick, that is what I object to. I believe that if we are going to go through the process of taking the test that we should at least make it meaningful in some manner. |
I agree that a T/F test is no way to test an individuals knowledge of the rules. The higher you score then the more you know, theoretically. The lower your score is, then there is a higher likelihood that you were guessing on more of the questions. The best way to test someone's knowledge is by making them explain their answers. That way you will know if they actually know what they're talking about. This is somewhat unlikely given the logistics nightmare it would be to grade so many different tests and rely on a graders' interpretation of what an official was trying to convey in his answer.
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NevadaRef
Your explanation re: 'very likely' is right on target - although the <B> assumption </B> that the distribution of any population is bell-like is . . . an assumption. In most of the populations we look at in life, experience shows that to be the case. But it is not the only way things can be distributed.
As to the 'guess-effect' in standardized testing, what choice do we have other than to be aware that it's there and, perhaps, supplement this kind of testing with a floor test, a game conditions review? |
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Peace |
The true value of the NFHS tests are skewed by how the state associations use them.
NFHS does not have an enforceable procedure nation wide to verify the usage of these tests. Instead they leave it up to the state associations to administer the tests, score them and place whatever importance on these tests. Some states require officials to take them closed book, some open book, some once every X years. I agree you have to put the use of these tests into the perspective of where you live and how the tests are used. Just like high school proficiency tests, the NFHS tests are for the benefit of a larger organization to say "Here is our standard, pass this and you can go officiate." |
Wow! Are we taking an English test, Math test, or officiating test?
AK ref SE |
Test Tomorrow
Be aware of all new rules, theese more than likely will be on the exam. And "never" add anything to the questions. Also this is a fact, once a question reads that a defender has established "legal guarding position" he/she can do no wrong!
Good Luck! |
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Even more shocking, however, is the "guessing penalty." Under that rule, there would be 10 qualified officials in the entire country. |
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Probability does not apply to a *single* random test taker. This is a fundemental concept. A single random test taker could get all, some, or none right in a 100 question T/F test and his results can not be predicted by the laws of statistics. Also, as Mark said, for N large we should expect SOME guessers to get 100% correct. But for N large the guessers tend to converge on a score of 50% correct with a probability approaching 1. And since you live in Nevada howzabout you put $100 on 00 for me, OK? Keep doing it until I win! :) [Edited by Dan_ref on Jun 5th, 2003 at 10:23 PM] |
Dan,
You keep saying that probability theory does not apply to a single test taker. This is wrong. The laws of mathematics and probability certainly do apply to him. Just because there is a slim chance that his score may not be within our expected range does not mean that these concepts do not apply to this situation. Probability theory accounts for these unexpected results and adequately explains them. This means that he is fully covered by the theory. You need to revise what you are writing to something more along the lines of "Although, we would expect someone who is guessing to get about half of their answers correct, there is an outside chance that any single test taker's results could be far from what is expected." I agree with the rest of what you wrote. To take a gambling example, could you come to Nevada and hit a jackpot on your very first pull of the slot machine handle? Yes, you could. Does this mean that the mathematics that casinos base their business upon does not apply to you when you first walk in the door? No. No one would come in the door thinking, "I can beat the odds because I am a single random gambler and probability theory doesn't apply to me." See how silly that sounds? PS If they didn't have table limits, I would be down there playing roulette right now! As for Mark, he is shocked, shocked I tell you, to learn that there is gambling going on here. ;) |
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Just at a camp yesterday.
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Just yesterday I was at a camp and the official running the camp, who happens to be a D1 Official and does many professional leagues told us this yesterday. For the record I am paraphrasing a bit, "rulebook officials can be the worst officials." In his words he calls these kind of people, "rulebook officials," for trying to learn every aspect of the rules, but cannot officiate a lick. He further went on to say, "they can know all these rules, but cannot call a simple foul or violation." So if you get and 80 (required by my state) as compared to 100, the official with the 100 score is not necessarily a better official than the official that only scored an 80. So when I hear an official that does more levels than anyone here talks about doing personally, tell me how silly it is to quote rule after rule after rule, that speaks volumes to me personally. Because in his words he says, "you need to have people skills, common sense and a basic understanding of the rules to officiate any game." He further went on to say, "if you do not have people skills to deal with coaches and players, you are in big trouble." Call it what you want, but I have seen more articles in Referee Magazine about "Presence, Dealing with conflict, Are you Argumentative, First Impressions," and a few other topics taht had little or nothing to do with passing a test, I am convinced. Peace |
JRUT-
I have seen people not just in officiating but in other areas of life. They can recite a manual for work, they can pass the written drivers test (and be the worst drivers in the world.) To succeed you need people skills, knowledge of whatever rules or regulations you are dealing with, common sense, and I am sure I am leaving out many other skill sets that are needed. So agree, if the only thing you can do is take a test you may not be a great official. AK ref SE |
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Statistics are generally used when one is trying to extrapolate (predict) population characteristics or parameters from sample statistics. Under those situations, increases in the sample population will tend to produce data points from the sample that are normally distributed about the true value of the parameter of the underlying population. This is independent as to whether the characteristic iself follows a normal distribution in the actual population. (If I determine the average age of many different classes of 9th graders in New York, those averages will tend to be normally distributed around the actual mean of all 9th graders in New York. This is true even though the actual ages of the 9th graders are not likely to be normally distributed.) This principle can be used to predict the probability that the results from any given sample accurately reflect the underlying population. For example, it could be used modify the assumption that guessers on a test are equally likely to guess True and False. It also has the same basis as the statement that the more often an individual repeats the guessing process, the more likely his results will match the predicted outcomes. However, it has nothing to do with calculating the probability of the different possible outcomes from multiple coin tosses, or multiple random guesses between two possible answers. |
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Well, maybe you should go back & reread my posts, pay attention to this: Quote:
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. . . You know, I was gonna try to say something intelligent on the subject, but as I was typing, I realized it just wasn't gonna happen. So, I agree with (hold on while I flip this quarter) Dan! :D |
Really could care less about the math part of the thread
(it gives me headaches). Rut makes some good points about testing at the higher levels but why should it be an either or situation? I would expect a D1 or H.S. finals official to be able score high on the test and have great court presence, settling for less should be unacceptable and at the very least have the state or conference reevaluate their training programs. Plain and simple the test is a tool that can be used on different levels. It is not the whole kit but one tool. More experienced officials use the test to keep up with the rules and trends of the game. For newer officials it is a foundation to build on. For trainers and evaluators it is used shore up weak spots in the training. For states and conferences it is used as a minimum qualification(usually accompanied by a time in service for upward movement to gain the game management skills). while there are always exceptions using the right tool for its intended purpose leads to superior work and using the wrong tool or using it incorrectly can lead to a sloppy product. |
Rut,
I agree with you that just because one has rules knowledge this doesn't make him a good official. There are many other factors and you have cited a few. However, my original post does not in any way concern this topic. I am simply saying that the purpose of the test as an evaluation tool is undermined if one cannot guage an official's RULES KNOWLEDGE by looking at his test score. The reason that this is so is because an official can significantly increase his score by simply guessing. This is my most important point and I hope that Dan will agree with me on this. :) The crux of my argument is that under the current grading system a score of 70 does not mean that the official knows 70% of the material on the test, but rather means that he only knows about 50%. This is a problem because most people don't realize this. If we adopted my +1, 0, -1 scoring, the scores would then much more accurately reflect how much of the material the officials know. I thought that was the purpose of the test--to see how much we know about the rules! For those of you out there that do not like this proposed scoring system, the are other alternatives. One is to simply go to the a,b,c,d,e multiple choice type of test. This would mean that a guesser would on average only get 1 out of every 5 blind guesses right. This would be an improvement over the current system in my opinion, but would require the NFHS to change the way they write the test. The beauty of my +1,0,-1 scoring system is that it does not require the NFHS to change anything. The state or local association that is grading the test simply changes how they score it. Once again, I am not claiming that one's test score in any way equates to doing a quality job on the court. Clearly someone who scores an 84 may be a much better official than someone who scored a 99. However, I do believe that it is extremely difficult to do a quality job with poor knowledge of the rules. One can get away with it most of the time, but when the crazy situations do occur these officials are at a loss as to what to do. They will simply do what they think is right, try to sell that, and move on. If it works--great, but I would prefer to know how to handle the situation properly and never put myself in a potential mess. PS Chuck, you crack me up! |
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http://213.239.157.21/smilies/dunce.gif |
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Jurassic Ref ... the French Connection. |
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Re: Re: Gees!
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He never asked about that.
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I was just passing one words of an official that has accomplished way more than you have (most people here for that matter) and has not officiated as long as many here. He must understand something about officiating that we here are still trying to strive for. If not, then why would the classroom portion of this camp deal more with "how you act on the court and the preception it brings you," than, "what is a false double foul?" Because this official's point was, if you were to call a false double foul, are you going to explain it in a way that a coach is going to understand it? And if you do explain it, is that going to get you "out of the soup," so to speak if $h!t hits the fan? And in this camp where I have done several games on Saturday, not one call was so complicated that I or any official had to figure out the rules interpretation to continue the game. All I have called this weekend are fouls and violations. I did not have any situations that we talked about here that rack the brain to where the language supports my call in the rulebook. And in the end, that is really the only point I am making here. If you want to make it into a "rules knowledge vs. presence" debate, be my guest. But I am just repeating a concept that did not come from me (like the other debate) and sharing it with the board. Considering that I got hired by another assignor on Saturday, I must be doing something right. BTW, he never asked me anything about what scores I received on a test. ;) Peace |
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We take a test here every year and I think that is good.
Why As 1 poster said as you get older you tend to keep some older concepts and this can apply to rules. Now I agree that being a rule wizard is not the only attribute that a good referee should have. You also need a.that court presence. b.a sense of humour. c.good people skills d.fitness e.excellent mechanics and probably a few more However if your rule knowledge is limited and that unusual event occurs right at a crucial part of your best game ever and you do not know the correct answer then it becomes your worst game because that is all anyone will remember about your performance |
I'm taking the PA test in October. How was the test on 6/2? Do you have any suggestions?
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If anyone is interested in brushing up on the NFHS test, I have last years available for your computer.
2 versions - One that can be used on the PC that is in MS Access and requires MS Access (part of the MS Office Suite) and the other is for the Palm These tests are FREE! If you are interested go to my website http://www.officialssoftware.com and click on the link for 'Other Products' and scroll to the bottom. There is an e-mail link and send me an e-mail In the e-mail state: Sport and type- either Palm or Access This might help if you want to brush up on your test taking skills and how these funky tests are worded. |
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In the camp I attended this weekend, some of the best players in the country were in attendance. This was an Adidas backed tournament that had teams from all over the country. I did the championship game of the 17 and up level, and the play was constantly above the rim all tournament long. Some of thhe best talent in the country was there, many already going to top D1 school and some possible NBA prospects for next year. Many of the players could shoot the lights out, dribble to the basket with ease and dunk the ball and a moments notice. And to add, coaches (one was an NBA player) that would be in your grill over many calls. To put the icing on the cake, one of the best officials in Chicago critiquing us and telling us what to do and not do. Not once can I think of a time any of us were told "that is the rule, that has to be call." But I did here, "is that call believable and can you sell that." So the entire weekend I was concentrating on making consistent calls rather than telling coach, "that is not a travel because rule blah-blah-blah say............." That was not the case at all. And when I would try to explain something in rulebook language, I would have a coach say, "I played the game all my life, I know what the rules of the game are. And I know them better than you." I guess quoting or try to explain the rule worked out well there? Peace |
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My score came printed on my official's ID card, which it says I have to carry whenever I officiate. Armed with this piece of knowledge, the next time I coach and I disagree with some calls, I'll ask him to produce his card and match mine up! :D I never paid attention to the threads about which shirt, pants, whistle, etc., but I will have to now. They sent along a packet of info from Purchase Officials Supplies of Pennsylvania in Pittsburgh. Ref in PA or anybody else, have you ever purchased from them? I see that I can get a "starter package" (shirt, pants, shoes, socks, comp shorts, whistle, lanyard, t-shirt) for $141! So much for making a little extra money on the side! |
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Congradulations
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You really cannot go wrong ordering from any place really. Honig's, Gerry Davis, +POS all can work. You can get shoes from just about any of these places or anywhere local that has all black leather. I think the best pants to get are the Sansabelt pants. Anything else is not worth the money. Shirt are strictly a matter of perference. I personally like the Poly/Cotton type. They do not wrinkle as easily. The breathe enough for me and are confrontable. But many I know like the Micro-Mesh type. To each his own on shirts. It really does not matter unless you have a preference. The Gerry Davis socks to me are the best. You do not have to wear two socks to keep your feet confrontable or dry with those (black and white socks I am talking about). Everything else is about comfort and personal preference. Good Luck coach. ;) |
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