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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 04:11am
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"And 1" a bad call?

I had an official that I respect very much, with many years of playoff experience, tell me after observing me that any foul called on a made basket is an unnecessary call. Went so far as to say "and 1" shouldn't ever be called unless the contact is very egregious. There were five other experienced officials in the locker room while he was talking to me and afterwards all were a little confused by these comments.
I'm all for letting skilled players play through some contact as long as there's no advantage, but don't the shooters deserve a little protection, especially on plays that aren't very saavy from the defenders. And does everyone really wait to see the result of a shot before they're calling fouls?
Thanks for your thoughts.
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 04:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindolbat View Post
I had an official that I respect very much, with many years of playoff experience, tell me after observing me that any foul called on a made basket is an unnecessary call. Went so far as to say "and 1" shouldn't ever be called unless the contact is very egregious. There were five other experienced officials in the locker room while he was talking to me and afterwards all were a little confused by these comments.
I'm all for letting skilled players play through some contact as long as there's no advantage, but don't the shooters deserve a little protection, especially on plays that aren't very saavy from the defenders. And does everyone really wait to see the result of a shot before they're calling fouls?
Thanks for your thoughts.
As far as I'm concerned, this is taking the concept of advantage/disadvantage way too far. A/D has nothing to do with whether a shot is made -- it has to do with whether the shot attempt is affected.
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 05:58am
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Originally Posted by Blindolbat View Post
I had an official that I respect very much, with many years of playoff experience, tell me after observing me that any foul called on a made basket is an unnecessary call. Went so far as to say "and 1" shouldn't ever be called unless the contact is very egregious. There were five other experienced officials in the locker room while he was talking to me and afterwards all were a little confused by these comments.
I'm all for letting skilled players play through some contact as long as there's no advantage, but don't the shooters deserve a little protection, especially on plays that aren't very saavy from the defenders. And does everyone really wait to see the result of a shot before they're calling fouls?
Thanks for your thoughts.
That official must think that a lot of D-I and NBA officials have no concept of what marginal/incidental contact is versus illegal contact.

As for waiting to see the result of the shot, I don't believe in doing that. I judge, at the time, whether the contact is illegal or not. If it is and we still have an and one, good for the offensive player.
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 09:12am
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We as an association got the same speech about a year ago.

I agree, call the foul if it's a foul, no matter if the basket is made or not.

Now, I have held my whistle on contact where a defender is falling trying to draw the charge, if the basket is made, I may ignore the block, if missed, make the call because the defender created the contact.

To make my picture clearer, the defend comes into the OP and contacts and flops. More often than not this contact has been minimal, but it is created by the defense, in my opinion.
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 09:34am
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I think it might be possible the observer was trying to say have a patient whistle and see the whole play? I don't take it as far as not calling a foul if the basket goes, but I do think at times we officials get a little whistle happy and call the and one more than it needs to be called.
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 09:55am
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Originally Posted by doubleringer View Post
I think it might be possible the observer was trying to say have a patient whistle and see the whole play? I don't take it as far as not calling a foul if the basket goes, but I do think at times we officials get a little whistle happy and call the and one more than it needs to be called.
But the fact that the ball went in the hole isn't why we hold the whistle -- it's that the contact doesn't rise to the level of a foul. This should be true whether the shot is made or missed.
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 10:10am
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Originally Posted by richmsn View Post
but the fact that the ball went in the hole isn't why we hold the whistle -- it's that the contact doesn't rise to the level of a foul. This should be true whether the shot is made or missed.
+1
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 10:20am
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Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan View Post
We as an association got the same speech about a year ago.

I agree, call the foul if it's a foul, no matter if the basket is made or not.

Now, I have held my whistle on contact where a defender is falling trying to draw the charge, if the basket is made, I may ignore the block, if missed, make the call because the defender created the contact.

To make my picture clearer, the defend comes into the OP and contacts and flops. More often than not this contact has been minimal, but it is created by the defense, in my opinion.
I'm confused, are you talking about a defender with LGP who falls early?
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 10:23am
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Whether the shot goes in doesn't matter, IMO. The question is whether the contact makes the shot discernibly more difficult.
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:11pm
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Originally Posted by doubleringer View Post
I think it might be possible the observer was trying to say have a patient whistle and see the whole play
I see this argument as, "how can the contact be truly advantageous when the shooter scored?"

It's somewhat of a soccer mentality, but there are a number reasons it doesn't work in basketball. The big one, as I see it, is continuation.

In other sports, the whistle kills the play, which is why those whistles are more patient. For example, you want to make sure a soccer attacker can "play through" any advantageous contact. You don't blast the whistle until the scoring opportunity is negated.

In basketball, by rule, if you're fouled after you start your attempt, the whistle allows you to finish it. This rule acknowledges that advantageous contact happens during tries for goal, and penalizes accordingly, while allowing the shooter his right complete his attempt.

I still believe in a patient whistle in basketball, especially on non-shooting fouls. Still, as long as continuation exists in basketball (which it should), the need to be patient won't be as strong as the other sports.
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:21pm
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There were a lot of guys around here who used to suggest the same thing and some that still do. It is often pushed by a lot, but not all, of the D3 and NAIA guys. But it is a fading philosophy.

I never really liked it and tried to to some degree and it just doesn't work out well in general. There is contact that makes the shot more difficult. The shooter deserves something more for having to make the shot under those circumstances. When not called, players get frustrated and coaches get frustrated....not worth the headaches to get done 5 minutes quicker.
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:38pm
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Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
I see this argument as, "how can the contact be truly advantageous when the shooter scored?"

It's somewhat of a soccer mentality, but there are a number reasons it doesn't work in basketball. The big one, as I see it, is continuation.
It's a soccer mentality?! I'll never do it again.
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:49pm
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Originally Posted by doubleringer View Post
It's a soccer mentality?! I'll never do it again.
It's not really a soccer mentality. The soccer mentality is we don't punish fouls when the penalty for the foul is less advantageous for offended team than the current situation is. We still acknowledge the foul by calling out "Play on."

The only place a soccer-style advantage could be played would be a breakaway where a foul which wasn't a shooting foul would stop play but not the breakaway. (Perhaps a passer getting killed after the ball is away or a dribbler being held but he quickly gets away without anyone getting between him and the basket.)
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:57pm
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Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
The soccer mentality is we don't punish fouls when the penalty for the foul is less advantageous for offended team than the current situation is.
That's equivalent to what the OP was saying, or at least, that's how I inferred it.
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 01:14pm
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Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
That's equivalent to what the OP was saying, or at least, that's how I inferred it.
Advantage in soccer acknowledges that there was a foul but awarding the penalty would hurt you. Advantage is soccer is expressly not ignoring the foul (even if the parents think that's what we are doing).

What the gent in the OP is suggesting is that we ignore fouls on made baskets. That has nothing to do with penalty hurting the offended team but we a misunderstanding of what advantage/disadvantage is.
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