back court question from MU v Tex game

ballgame99

Don't recall the time this happened so sorry no video, but there was a play where MU was doing a weave handoff up top, the Tex defender hits the ball down off the MU player's leg and the ball goes backcourt and is recovered by MU in the backcourt. Backcourt got called. That's not the right call is it?

Raymond

Since you posed the question first tell us why you think the call was incorrect.

mbyron

BadNewsRef wrote
Since you posed the question first tell us why you think the call was incorrect.

You know why he thinks it's wrong: because the defender caused the loss of player control.

You also know that this is completely irrelevant to the backcourt call. Last to touch, first to touch. Easy as pie (as a first approximation). 🙂

ballgame99

yes, because the defensive player caused a loss of control and the offensive player did not regain control prior to it going into the BC. We've had a couple posts on here where on an inbounds play A1 touches the ball in FC but doesn't gain control until in the BC and that is clean, so I was assuming the same logic applied.

So if a D1 tips a pass and it then clips A1's hand on the way to the BC and then A1 recovers, that is BC?

tref

ballgame99 wrote
yes, because the defensive player caused a loss of control and the offensive player did not regain control prior to it going into the BC. We've had a couple posts on here where on an inbounds play A1 touches the ball in FC but doesn't gain control until in the BC and that is clean, so I was assuming the same logic applied.

So if a D1 tips a pass and it then clips A1's hand on the way to the BC and then A1 recovers, that is BC?

The throw-in rule has an exception. And a tipped ball by the defense, f/c or back does not cause team control to end.

Is B1s tipped pass a live ball in the frontcourt or a throw-in pass... it all depends.

APG

Requirements for backcourt violation:

1. Team control (and initial player control established at some point if coming from a throw-in)
2. Ball achieves a frontcourt status
3. The team in control is the last to touch the ball before the ball achieves a backcourt status
4. The team in control is the first to touch the ball after it achieves a backcourt status.

Your issue with the play is with the definition of team control and when it ends. Team control ends only if the ball becomes dead, there's a try, or the other team gains control of the ball.

bob jenkins

ballgame99 wrote
yes, because the defensive player caused a loss of control and the offensive player did not regain control prior to it going into the BC. We've had a couple posts on here where on an inbounds play A1 touches the ball in FC but doesn't gain control until in the BC and that is clean, so I was assuming the same logic applied.

So if a D1 tips a pass and it then clips A1's hand on the way to the BC and then A1 recovers, that is BC?

Are you a referee or a fan?

tref

bob jenkins wrote
Are you a referee or a fan?

If its the former, just watch the shot clock on the bottom of your screen. If it doesnt reset, then you know that t/c exists even though there is no p/c.

mbyron

ballgame99 wrote
yes, because the defensive player caused a loss of control and the offensive player did not regain control prior to it going into the BC. We've had a couple posts on here where on an inbounds play A1 touches the ball in FC but doesn't gain control until in the BC and that is clean, so I was assuming the same logic applied.

So if a D1 tips a pass and it then clips A1's hand on the way to the BC and then A1 recovers, that is BC?

Team control may continue to exist even when player control is lost: the rule is written this way to cover the situation where a foul occurs during a pass between players on the offense. So loss of player control doesn't affect the backcourt rule.

That rule, as others have mentioned, has an exception that applies to throw-ins. The same logic thus does not apply.

Raymond

ballgame99 wrote
yes, because the defensive player caused a loss of control and the offensive player did not regain control prior to it going into the BC. We've had a couple posts on here where on an inbounds play A1 touches the ball in FC but doesn't gain control until in the BC and that is clean, so I was assuming the same logic applied.

So if a D1 tips a pass and it then clips A1's hand on the way to the BC and then A1 recovers, that is BC?

You have to remember there is Player Control and there is Team Control. Must be specific when discussing things like backcourt.

As has been stated, during and subsequent a throw-in, backcourt violations can only occur after Player Control has been established.

Adam

mbyron wrote
Team control continues to exist even when player control is lost: the rule is written this way to cover the situation where a foul occurs during a pass between players on the offense.

Are you sure of this?

mbyron

Snaqwells wrote
Are you sure of this?

Should have said, "... may continue to exist ..."

Of that I'm sure. 🙂

Raymond

Snaqwells wrote
Are you sure of this?

Just substitute "can continue" for "continues".

Adam

mbyron wrote
Should have said, "... may continue to exist ..."

Of that I'm sure. 🙂

Sorry, I was talking about your interpretation of why the rule is written that way.

tjones1

They nailed this call.

Also, nailed the F1 towards the end of the game (although, I think he orginally signaled PC); nonetheless, they shot the free throws.

ballgame99

Jones you are right on the flagarent at the end of the game, I knew that one right away.

To answer previous questions I'm a new official, and have played and coached for years. My understanding of this play a couple months ago would have been that it was a clear BC, but after reading and watching all these exceptions off the inbounds I obviously confused myself. Thanks everyone for the clarification. Sorry if it was a dumb question.

Raymond

ballgame99 wrote
.... Thanks everyone for the clarification. Sorry if it was a dumb question.

Not a dumb question. I always ask the questioner what his logic is so I know which way to approach the answer. A lot of times that will lead the questioner to figure out what is he getting wrong.

Camron Rust

BadNewsRef wrote
Not a dumb question. I always ask the questioner what his logic is so I know which way to approach the answer. A lot of times that will lead the questioner to figure out what is he getting wrong.

And it is not a dumb question at all since, in the NBA, it would be ruled differently. It is not at all surprising that some will expect that the result would be the same under NCAA and/or NFHS rules.

mbyron

Snaqwells wrote
Sorry, I was talking about your interpretation of why the rule is written that way.

I'm sure it's overdetermined, but part of the explanation is the point I mentioned.