1. Curious about others thoughts on stopping/not stopping the game when Rose and Najara collided and went down under the SA basket in the 4th Q with about 4:30 left. SA was leading 102-99 and got the rebound. They proceeded to advance the ball up court and hesitated, Najara got up and ran back on defense as Rose continued to lay on the floor, then SA scored making it 104-99. Dallas inbounded and came back down the court with Rose still down under the basket. Dirk took it in on a drive and was fouled, then stepped on Rose's ankle and hopped over the rest of him. Also a SA asst. was down there attending to/watching over Rose at during this drive to the basket and he sort of pushed Dirk away from Rose.
When would you have stopped the action for the injury/safety of the downed player, if at all? Also, would you handle it differently in a pro game than a NFHS or NCAA game? Who bears the greater responsibility for looking out for the injured player? His team (take a TO since they have the ball and don't score), or the officials (stop the game if he is at risk of further injury)?

2. What is this about fouling Bowen away from the ball, including even fouling him while he is OOB after making a throw-in!!??
The NBA has some rule that you can do this in the last 2 minutes of the game or it is one free throw that anyone may shoot and possession again, but shouldn't this be they way it is the whole game?
There was even a clip on ESPN with two officials (Bennett Salvatore was one) talking about Dallas doing this on purpose and how to handle it.
My conclusion is that the NBA needs to address this problem.

Ok, I just typed my response and hit some "magic button" on the keyboard and it disappeared. AAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!
So here goes again...

About the fouling.

In the last TWO minutes of the 4th quarter or overtime, if a player is fouled AWAY FROM THE PLAY, the penalty is to reward the offended team one free throw (which any player on the floor at the time may shoot) plus possession.
I believe this rule came about due to Wilt Chamberlain's poor free throw shooting and the fact that teams would take their chances fouling him to get the ball back at the end of a tight game.

In the first three quarters, there is a similar penalty when a player is fouled PRIOR to the ball being released on a free throw. That penalty is the offended PLAYER is awarded TWO free throws no matter if the penalty situation exists.

IMO the NBA rule is superior to what is done in NF/NCAA.
Under those rules, you have the "option" of calling an intentional foul in those cases, but I stress it is an "option". Make it automatic. JMO

Now about stopping play. Officials in the NBA are not allowed to stop play for an injured player. (unless that player is bleeding excessively)
Usually teams will call a timeout when a teammate is down, or will foul to stop the play.
I was surprised that neither happened in Monday's game when Rose was down.

I know that in a HIgh School or College game, I would stop play if the player was in danger.
Not allowed however in the NBA.

Drake

I knew all those answers, but I was asleep when Drake gave 'em! :)

;)

Any official, at any level, who doesn't stop play
 

when there is any indication of serious injury, is a moron. Rose could easily have had a cervical spine just waiting to snap and leave him paralyzed. Someone goes down, they're not moving, you stop the game.

What was the matter with his teammates?

Pathetic.

Jeff,

Easy to say when you're not working that level.
When in Rome....
Simply put, the NBA is a different animal. The rules that are in place were put there for a reason. Usually because a player or team tried to take advantage at one time. Such as the "away from the play" foul that came about because of Wilt Chamberlain. Or the 5 second backdown count, (Charles Barkley and Mark Jackson) I can't tell you the Genesis of this rule but,
most likely the reason they don't stop play is that players have tried to fake injuries to stop a clear advantage by the other team or to stop the clock. (NFL comes to mind)
Does it bite them in the a** sometimes, yes.
Anyone who has Worked Pro-ball or even high level High School or College, knows that players are fine actors and will try for the Oscar any chance they get.

When you work HS or College, by all means stop the play!
You are allowed to by rule. In the NBA they are not.
Just for confirmation, I e-mailed one of the referees from the game and asked if the rule as I stated it and the handling of it was correct. He said yes.
And he said to say Hello to the Board.
:)

[Edited by DrakeM on May 20th, 2003 at 04:05 PM]

One other thought.
To me, a clear indicator of an injury is blood, seizure etc.
As I stated before, NBA referees ARE allowed to stop play due to bleeding. And I would bet that if a player were seizing on the floor, play would be stopped.
A player laying on the ground is not necessarily an indicator of injury. IMO

The Officiating!!!
 

I live in San Antonio and all I heard today was bad officiating in the game last night. Since I've became a Ref, I have a lot of LOVE for the Refs, which makes me very defensive.

I fell asleeep when the Spurs were up 18. Did any of you see bad officiating?


BTW, I like Phil Jackson, hince me falling asleep.

My prediction is that this series is all about the Coaches. Nelson is proving he's better. Spurs fans blame things on the Refs. My friends say I have a Stripes Bug!!!!!

My reply:
YES I DO!!!

Van Exel "3" SA-DAL
 

Late in the SA-Dal game Van Exel is behind the 3 pt arc
and fakes a three. The defender jumps to block the shot
a full three+ feet in front of Van Exel and moving sideways to Van Exel's position. Van Exel lunges about three feet across the 3 pt arc, sticks his shoulder out (keeping his pivot behind the arc), makes contact, jumps off the front foot (which is again 3 feet inside the arc) throws up a prayer. Foul called on the defender, THREE foul shots rewarded (BTW, makes all three and it was a one point game with a few seconds left). Two questions:

A) Is the number of shots reviewable? I know they can change
a 2 to a 3 and vice-versa, how about the foul shots?

B) Is there EVER a case where verticality is applied to the
shooter?

Thanks!

Re: Van Exel
 

OK, no NBA guys here, so forget A, but:

B) Is there EVER a case where verticality is applied to the
shooter?

I have never seen a player control foul called at ANY
level when the shooter lunges into an air-born defender
outside his "vertical plane." What's the deal? Does verticality apply to shooters?

Re: Re: Van Exel
 

but there was an execllent no-call (apologies to MTD) in the closing seconds of the NJ/Detroit game on a 3 point attempt where the shooter jumped into a vertical Net player(Kidd?). Even the announcers agreed it was a good no-call.

Re: Re: Re: Van Exel
 

> but there was an execllent no-call

Sure, but how many 1000's of times has
Reggie Miller (and others) suckered officials
on ones like that? Again, can anyone think of
a single time an offensive player was called for
initiating contact when he broke into the defender's
vertical space when the defender was in the air?
I've never seen the call ever, at any level.

Drake, i don't expect you to be a great official and a historian, but isn't the "away from the play" foul a more recent rule addition? I would've sworn that it was only added a few years ago, in response to the "hack-a-Shaq" strategy. I could obviously be wrong, so I'm just seeing how sure you are of the timeline.

Chuck

Re: Re: Re: Re: Van Exel
 

Yep, I've seen it called in the NBA.

TCB!!!
 

WOW!

WHACK!

WHACK! SEE YA!

WHACK!

WHACK!

WHACK! SEE YA!

WHACK!

WHACK!

Busy first half!!

Re: TCB!!!
 

Looks like an AAU game.

Re: Re: TCB!!!
 

Dan, that's the only reason I work'em! :D

Re: Re: Re: TCB!!!
 

We get to do our Billy Crystal impersonation!

http://www.johnspencer.net/images/FP/fp4.jpg

Chuck,
I'm not ABSOLUTELY sure of the time line,
I do know however the "away from the play rule" was in existence BEFORE Shaq came into the league.

I can live with that. :) Thanks for the reply!

Re: Re: Re: Re: TCB!!!
 

Kareem: You can't throw me out! This is my farewell game!
Billy: Well, then let me be the first to say. . . FAREWELL!!

By the way, I didn't know that President Bartlett's Chief of Staff (Leo McGarrity) used to be a ref!! :)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TCB!!!
 

His name was Jess Kersey when he was officiating! :)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Van Exel
 

I've seen it a few times. I don't have any specifics but in one case (either NCAA or NBA, can't remember which), the shooter came around a high screen for a 3-point attempt. A defender came flying at the shooter but in a path that clearly was going to carry them past and to the side of the shooter. The shooter jumped sideways into the defender. The foul was correctly called on the offense. The official clearly felt that had the shooter was the reason for the contact and that the contact was entirely caused by the shooter's actions.

Pretty good article about the officiating in Game 2.

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/sto...MPLATE=DEFAULT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Van Exel
 

"A defender came flying at the shooter but in a path that clearly was going to carry them past and to the side of the shooter. The shooter jumped sideways into the defender. The foul was correctly called on the offense."

That's exactly what happened on the Van Exel call (except
it was called on the defense) and 100's (1000's?) of Reggie Miller plays (100% *I* remember also called on the D).

I guess my question is why does that call so rarely favor
the defense? Other player control fouls seem to be called
correctly on a reasonably consistent basis.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Van Exel
 

The defender is entitled to the spot if he has obtained a legal guarded position. He is not necessarily entitled to it because he's headed in that direction. "A defender that came flying at the shooter..." has not obtained legal guarding position nor is he staying within a vertical plane.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Van Exel
 

Agreed regarding LGP. However, a player may not move into the path of an airborne opponent after the opponent has jumped. If the shooter clearly goes out of his way to get into that path and it is entirely unrelated to taking the shot, I don't think LGP is the issue. The dribbler doesn't get to arbitrarily put their body in the opponents path just to draw a foul. Furthermore, the dribbler is held to the same requirments in setting a screen as anyone else. They must allow time and distance.

This is different that the defender jumping across the desired path of the shooter and making contact in which case the defense it going to get the foul.

I don't disagree. However, there's nothing in the post that indicates who left the floor first. If I see a player running at me, there's nothing that prevents me from jumping into his path while in the act. In such cases, the cardinal rule of jump shooting is usually going to apply, "Protect the shooter."

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Van Exel
 

Well, if the defender has his arms outstretched outside his vertical plain the dribbler can move into the contact & "draw" the foul. IMO this is similar to a shooter moviung into an airborn defender on a shot.

Bob Delaney, Danny Crawford, and Bill Spooner will probably try to avoid trouble if they can, but don't expect these guys to lie down tonight. I think Danny Crawford is probably the best official in the league but make no mistake, he takes no $hit.

BTW, I thought Keeny Smith made a great comment. "There was nothing wrong with the officiating in Game 1 when Dallas shot 50 FTs." Great point, Kenny!

Let me fix them quotes:

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef "I don't disagree. However, there's nothing in the post that indicates who left the floor first." In the Van Exel case Nick was a foot or two behind the 3 point arc, faked a shot, the defender jumped sideways to Nick, parallel to the line, and 2-3' INSIDE the line. Van Exel jab steps 2-3' across the line, stepping well inside the arc, then jumping into the passing defender. Threw up a prayer (missed by 15+ feet, not really even a shot attempt). Was awarded *3* free throws (that was the other question: shouldn't that be reviewable like a shot?). Often in the Reggie Miller cases the defender jumps within his vertical plane, and after the defender is in the air, Miller lunges in and under and throws up a shot. The other Miller trick is extending his legs outside his vertical plane on jumpers, hooking the passing defender. Far more often than not Miller gets those calls. I've NEVER seen him called for those kind of offensive fouls. I remember reading an NBA official's interview, and he admitted they were well aware of Millers tricks, but that he was so good at them it was hard to catch him, and he often benefited from bad calls. "Protect the shooter." I agree! But....*IF* the defender jumps first, and will land well outside the shooter's vertical, the defender does not extend his arms, shouldn't the airborn defender be given the same protection according to the rules? Or at least the benefit of a no call? "If I see a player running at me, there's nothing that prevents me from jumping into his path while in the act. In such cases, the cardinal rule of jump shooting is usually going to apply, "Protect the shooter."

[/QUOTE]

Joe, it's a lot easier to hit quote, and then type BELOW the quote.

Same thing as happened in game 1 took place again tonight in game 5. Van Exel was in front of the SA bench in the 4th quarter and faked a three, then stepped into the two point range (clearly! let's say about two feet inside) and then was fouled while shooting. The officials awarded him three free throws. How can they miss this twice? We get this play right more often in high school games.