Should I have called a Tech?
 

Last weekend I was officiating some 11th/12th grade CYO. I called a travel on a kid, and he did the usual whine and moan, but then, he beamed the ball at me. Like a hard baseball throw. We were probably 8-10 feet apart. I was in sheer shock, and by the time I could register what happened, it was too late. Should I have called a tech? How long is too long to wait to call a tech on a player?

Yes, call the T. Doesn't sound like you needed to wait.

Yeah, the only hesitation should have been you getting the whistle back to your mouth if you didn't have it in already.

That's definitely a technical foul, and some might argue that's borderline flagrant.

Probably. I gave a T for this years ago. Or if nothing else, I would not have allowed that player to get away with something else for sure.

Peace

While it should be called sooner, I'd say the drop-dead point is when you administer the throw-in.

THis was the approach I ended up taking....I called him for EVERYTHING.

I hope you didn't look for violations/fouls specifically on this player, just because he whipped the ball at you. While he deserves some sort of discipline, this wouldn't be fair. Either call the technical or don't, but afterward, he must be treated like everyone else (at least as far as normal basketball stuff goes).

no, not at all, but whenever he made an infraction, i never thought twice about ringing him up again.

I did not mean go get him on other aspects of the game, he just would be on my list for the next outburst or action towards me or my partner I would then get him. That being said they would not get the benefit of doubt for other aspects of the game. I would probably call more fouls on things I might have decided were marginal if the player thinks I totally screwed up. I would not call something that was not there. It would just be in the back of my mind to make a foul call when I was either talking a player out of some action or not calling something that would normally not be appropriate for the game.

Peace

ABSOLUTELY! I don't think there is even ONE official on this forum that would not Whack this kid...at least none that have thought about this and are ready for this.

Are you ready the next time some player throws the ball at you hard?

I would have walked him to his coach and said, "this player just earned a technical, you want to handle him?" Coach says, "yes, I will handle him"..."thanks coach" tweet, technical foul.

If the coach says "No, he's alright", "Thanks coach" tweet, flagrant.

Officials and high school players are not equal. We are adults, I don't feel we need to take crap from kids. If he wants to act like an idiot, his coach can talk to him, either way he's sitting on that bench.

I totally disagree. Call the foul and make a decision and if a coach wants an explanation, then give it to them if they act professionally. I would not decide a flagrant act based on the actions of the coach. Make a call and move on. All you are doing is inviting more problems by interacting with a coach and then deciding to eject a player for something other than the actions alone.

Peace

BTW...I might have whacked him for this.

Kids don't get to "whine and moan" at me....and if this is usual for you, you are either relatively new (I would guess somebody in their 20's) and/or need to get some advice from some veterans in your area in how to handle these situations.

But...don't get me wrong...thanks for posting this kind of stuff, it gets us all thinking about what we need to do in certain situations.;)

The actions alone deem it a flagrant but if the coach decides to handle it, I would probably just rule it a technical.

Now if he had bounced passed it hard, that is nothing, throwing a dart at an official 8-10 feet away is grounds for flagrant. See ya.

8-10 feet away that's like 3 -4 steps...if that ball hits you, you might get a concussion. This isn't a no call, this is at minimum a technical. If he were 15-20 feet away, I probably don't have anything. But in this case, it's the proximity that definitely needs to be addressed.

Ha, you are right on all fronts. I am new, and I am 28. I will know how to handle this NEXT time around....

Good for you...that's the spirit!

I'd be careful with this line of thinking...especially in today's age where everything is a camera phone away from being put on the internet. I would not go about trying to call a player for everything when I didn't take care of business...for whatever reason. Now if the player comes close to unsporting conduct, then go ahead and whack him as he's already had his one "freebie."

I got to say I don't like this line of thinking. If you think the player earned a garden variety technical foul, you should just go ahead and assess it. If you think it's flagrant, then assess that and tell the coach the player is done for the game. I'm not going to base my decision based on how the coach decides to handle his player. That to me is changing how one calls a game based on not approving of a coach's tactics/judgement. That to me is no different than deciding to call more fouls on a pressing team up by 40 because one does not approve of a coach not calling off the dogs.

I'm with Toren. Winding up and throwing a basketball from that short a distance at an official's head is intent to harm. I've had a ball thrown with a chest pass from that distance with not much oomph on it, and called a regular T.

But if a kid is winding up and throwing a fastball at my head, there's no way I'm letting him stay in the game. Buh-bye.

...you mean I've been screwing this up all this time?...whoops!;)

I hear you, but my thought process is, he's a kid and needs coaching about this situation. So, if the coach steps up and says I will take responsibility and handle this, okay coach thanks, technical. If the coach doesn't then the player still is going to sit next to that coach and the coach will know he had opportunity and didn't take advantage.

It's not necessarily a black/white open/closed case. Someone may view this play and say flagrant right away, some might say technical, some might say nothing. But I'm going at least technical and possibly flagrant. I'm going to leave myself an out if the coach is cooperative. That could also build repoir for future games.

I don't think anyone is debating whether it's a technical foul...and most won't debate if an official decided to DQ the player for the act...especially if the proximity of the official and the hard throw were close.

IMO, if you're about the kid getting coaching about the situation, he can get coaching in either scenario. If a player commits a flagrant act, I'm not going to allow his coach to in essence "buy" his player out of a DQ. For all we know, the coach could say he'd "take care of it," have a little talk with the player, and send the player right back out five minutes again. You're not going to retroactively assess a flagrant T at this point are you?

He didn't throw it at my head, but he threw an over the top, one handed pitch right in my chest. It was a laser. you could feel the intent behind the throw. I went up to him at half time and told him "you know you got away with one there, but dont ever throw the ball at me like that again."

After the game he came a shook my hand. Even that felt phony though.

Of course not.

I'm walking up to the coach telling him this player is assessed a technical and if he wants to handle him. I'm not telling him, coach if you handle him I will only give him a T. Now whether he handles it or not at that point isn't my concern really. But I would give the coach the benefit of the doubt until he proved me wrong.

If I were you, I'd change your mindset. Assess the penalty the act deserves and let the coach deal with it however he wants to.

I'm more than happy if a coach tells me he'll take care of a player if the player's merely pushing the envelope and if the coach is proactive about it, but not when the player fires a basketball at me.

I think that way of thinking has all kinds of problems associated with it. Again you should make a call based on the actions and your judgment alone. Talking to the coach should not change or upgrade a foul you called at the time. And that way of thinking gives the coach another opportunity to say you were bias or that you were out to get him/her in the right situation.

Peace

Fair enough.

Slightly OT, but where do you ref CYO? I work for CYO Portland, and I haven't seen anybody else on here mention CYO before.

Im on the east coast, MD, VA, DC.

That might be fine -- but you can't ask the coach and then base your actions on his answer.

Either (a) T, or (b) get ready to T but stop if the coach says ""I'll take care of it -- Jimmy get your *** on the bench" before you can blow the whistle, or (c) decide not to T and ask the coach for his help in controlling the player.

Or, (d) step out of the way of the ball and make the kid chase it down for you.

This is not a democracy. You are judge, jury, and executioner. The coach plays no part in this.

Please no one who reads this forum think that this is an appropriate action. Either penalize on the spot or not. But for the love of christ don't walk over to the coach and ask him this stupid question AND THEN T.

Because then you will most likely have to T the coach up as well. Plus this whole mechanic described is just stupid.

Why is it "stupid"?

You gotta report your Technical to the table regardless, so what's the difference if you have a conversation first?

"This player just earned a Technical, do you want to handle him?" - What's the point of the dog and pony show of whistle and either T or F depending on the answer?

If you want to do this go ahead. I think it's a stupid mechanic.

The proper way would be report the T and then if you think the player needs addressing from the coach and he in not, you can ask the coach to have a talk with him and tell him why he got the T.

If you ask the Coach "Are you gonna take care of him?" or "You got him, Coach?" and THEN call a T on the kid after the Coach says "Yeah, I got him", that's stupid. It will do nothing but to incite further reaction from the Coach...

So you're okay with a pony and dog show, talking to the coach afterwards, but not a dog and pony show, talking to the coach beforehand.

Again, the coach knows he just got a technical, he doesn't know what kind, the only person who knows that is me. So if the coach says, I will handle it, I might just go with a technical. This is a private discussion that only the player, coach and me would hear.

Have you seen anyone do this? Have you done it yourself? If you answered No to either of those questions, then perhaps there is a better way of doing it, that no one is using. I haven't done it either, but I wouldn't be so eager to say it's "stupid" unless I had.

My words were, "Coach, this player just earned a technical, do you got him".

Not sure why we're changing my words around here.

I think I see the issue.

I don't mean give the Technical there at the bench right after talking to the coach.

I mean I go to report the foul after talking to the coach and then I'm either going flagrant T or T.

Maybe people were picturing this incorrectly, maybe no one will ever do it this way and it doesn't matter if you T him up at the bench or when you're reporting him, but this at least should paint a clearer picture.

Then your message to the coach needs to be just that. "Coach, he earned a T. If you take him out that's all it will be. If not, then it will be a flagrant T."

It's still not a good idea, in my opinion.

I think you're trying to use a tachnique where it can't / shouldn't be used. The technique of getting a coach to help is used when a player is *approaching* the line, and you need the coach's help to pull him back. It's not used once the player crosses the line.

If you tell a coach that his player just earned a technical, and then based on his response, you decide to upgrade it to flagrant, you've set yourself up for a problem.

Make a decision on which one it is before you talk to the coach.

+1

Another approach, based on my stuntman training.

1. As the ball is approaching your face, open your hand, and put the back of your hand directly against your face. Let the ball hit your hand. It should make a nice, loud smack.

2. Lean your head back, and throw your feet up. You'll begin to fall. With your free hand, reach for the floor and smack it. That will create a nice sound and break your fall.

With a little practice, you can make this look like a Class A Felony. Should have no problem selling Toren's flagrant T at that point. :D

Me, I'm just calling an unsporting T, not extracting a pound of flesh from the kid for the rest of the game, and playing on.

I would never attempt the method that Toren suggests for a few reasons:

1. Whats the other coach thinking as we are having private discussions?
2. After "asking" the coach to take care of it, we visually stick the kid & that gives the perception that it was for something in the private discussion & not the unsporting act.
3. We are supposed to get with a partner on atypical situations before going to the table.
- Walk player to coach
- Ask if coach will handle him
- Give the T signal
- Go find a partner to rehearse
- FINALLY, take it to the table
Too long & drawn out.

I strongly suggest:
1. Make a decision as we are paid to do.
2. Rehearse, ask if it needs to be upgraded & take it to the table.

There is a reason we make decisions & take it to the table prior to talking with players/coaches. Just my opinion on this play Toren...

As you see its unanimous, the board has spoken & like grandma always said, "everybody aint crazy."

Our job is not to coach, or to teach, or to teach coaches to teach or to coach.

Our job is to enforce the rules. Just do that.

Find the right veterans, I might add. Just because they've been around for 15 years doesn't mean they know how to handle this or will do it correctly either. I know guys in their 20s that know how to handle business, and I know guys in their 50s that don't take care of anything and can't manage a game. The opposite is true as well. Don't just ask any veteran.

Like others have said, I don't know why you feel the need to have a conversation first. Call the T (Whether it's flagrant or not...just decide), go report it, and give the coach a brief explanation if he asks for it.

Why be vague though? What does "Do you got him?" mean? To the coach that might mean sit him for two minutes and put him right back in. Then you've passed on a flagrant simply because the coach said he will take care of it, when in reality he didn't do anything. Just use your judgment and things will work out.

Has anyone ever seen it done the way I suggest?
 

We're all pretty quick at condemning it, so surely people must have seen this to know with certainty that it isn't the right way to go.

This seems to me a very gray play, not black and white, so there are probably several ways to do the job. If everyone else wants to look the exact same, that's fine, I'm not telling everyone else what to do. I'm just giving an alternative suggestion for how to handle it.

Find what works for you.

If you want to get a ball thrown at your face from 8-10 feet away and then have a conference to figure out if you should upgrade fine.

If you want to just throw out a T, no discussion, fine.

If you want to throw our a Flagrant, no discussion, fine.

If you want to fake how hard the ball hits you, similar to Marshall's head coach, fine. :D

If you want to walk the kid to his coach, have a brief discussion with coach, then walk to the table and report...NO WAY, COMPLETELY INCORRECT

You know I love you like a play cousin, but pages 135 & 136 of the manual has step by step procedures for foul calling & nowhere in there does it say go bargain with the coach.

When I first started we reported & stayed tableside, now we go opposite due to overcommunicating with coaches as opposed to our partners.

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others.
By the time I finish my song?

Except you are playing lets make a deal. do this if you want, I could care less. See how it works, especially if you are getting evaluated.

go ahead, just do it. Please let us know how that turns out. I can tell you that if I am evaluating you I am going to tell you to never do that again, and I will also question your judgement as to your desire to bargain the severity of the call. In my opinion this will not make for a good evaluation.

but like I said, go ahead and do whatever you want to do.

You aren't going to "see" my thought process. You aren't going to "see" me thinking, coach is taking care of business so I'm just going to go with a T. You aren't going to "see" that if coach doesn't take care of business, then I'm going with a Flagrant.

What you will see is, ball being thrown, me being calm, me taking the problem to the bench, a few short words, a report at the table.

But hopefully I will never have a dart thrown at me from 8-10 feet away for this to ever happen. But if it does, I will let you know how it turns out. I'll even post the video.

I do not know why you are getting defensive, you posted your thoughts on the site and told everyone why you do what you did. I would assume if an evaluator asked you what happen you would probably tell them what you did and why. Either way if you did something the coach did not like, that might get reported to and you would have to answer to why you did what you did. Again, no one is debating that you could give a flagrant foul here, but you are advocating doing it only based on the actions of the coach. That is where you lost everyone.

Peace

Why would we not see ball being thrown, you calmly blowing whistle and calmly giving signal for T, you taking the problem to the bench, a few short words, a report to the table.

That way no one in the gym thinks you let the Coach talk you into/out of anything. You've already told us all that there is a T...we're just calmly waiting to know whether you are tossing the kid or not.

...there you go Toren...isn't that a MUCH nicer mechanic than waiting?

I don't mean to pile on...but, if you wait to give the T...it looks like the coach said something to get the T as opposed to what the kid did.

Usually, for almost all T's, one is going to blow their whistle and signal a T...then report it to the table. Any interaction with the coach almost always comes after the technical is reported to the table. And in fact, if you DQ a player, you're going to have to inform the head coach anyway. Like bob said earlier, one communicates with the coach before a player crosses the line...giving the coach a chance to "handle it."

I will say, I've never seen an infraction of this sort reported AFTER talking to the coach. All kinds of misconceptions can come of it...at the very least, the opposing coach is going to wonder why you had a word with the other head coach before assessing the technical.

Cause sometimes I like to walk the road less traveled. In cases like this where it's grey area, I want to try different methods and figure out what works best.

One small amendment to my earlier statement, you would see ball being thrown, you would see me do the Neo in the Matrix to avoid the ball, then the rest of that stuff.

I have no problem with giving a T at the spot. Then walking the kid to the coach and telling him he earned a T, you going to handle him? And I may upgrade depending on the answer.

At the table it's still a T, it's just going to either be a T or an ejection (flagrant).

To each their own...I've never seen any official stop to talk to a coach before reporting a foul to the table...especially in regard to the infraction just committed by a player.

Quite frankly, your way of doing this (and I would point out that no one has agreed with your method...take that for what it's worth) make little sense to me.

Well I have never done this, and the chances of this scenario happening to me specifically is quite small. So this whole argument is probably moot.

But I promise, if I ever do this I will post the video...then it can leave the realm of academic and enter reality.

Wrong. You don't base your call on how the coach handles it. You base it on the act.

If he throws a fast, hard ball to you, technical foul.

If he throws the ball at you, that's different. That's flagrant.

We just had a discussion about a varsity coach who did this exact thing from the sideline in a JV game. Unanimously, we said to toss him.

Why in the world would you give a player more leeway? That's exactly what you're doing by even giving the coach a chance to "take care of it."

I personally have a big issue with this. No where in the rule book does it give you authority to eject a coach for not taking care of his team. Everyone has a different threshold of what is acceptable and what isn't.

What's next are you gonna dump a coach who calls a bad iplay?

Try reading his post again.