By Request Of Eyezen
 

Eyezen asked me to get a clip of this play for discussion:

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To establish legal guarding position, the defender should have been facing the ball carrier *and* have two feet down.

And did he not?

I have LGP and then a sidestep the maintain. Charge.

My point exactly. It was so obvious, I can't imagine why this is a block.

The new L got beat down the court and did not have a good look at the defender's position. Looks to me like it should have been a PC call. Mistakes happen.

How was this ruled a block?
LGP is established and maintained with the sidestep and his feet are not within the RA.Looks like a PC foul to me too but rockyroad is right-the new lead does not do a good job of sprinting down the court and keeping up with the play.He trails it all the way and only gets into position after the hit forcing him to guess.

One eye closed and full speed, offensive foul. Pretty ho-hum and no reaction after. Sometimes I don't get it. No reaction from players, coaches after such obvious ones and all hell breaks loose after very close marginal calls.

You'd have to be Usain Bolt to be able to get ahead of this play.

I agree. I would have held my position at the FT line extended and observed from the C position here.

I'm sorry, but I think that idea places you in a worse position.

The only way for this to be a block is if B1 moves forward. If not on the end line, forward movement is best seen when the line between yourself and separation is parallel to the end line.

Besides, A1 traveled twice on the play. Once when receiving the pass, and once just before contact. :)

How much would stopping at the FT line extended change the angle you get on this play?

Looks like Steratore. Maybe he was a little sleepy from Saturday nights playoff game. :)

Good eye!

Here's a link to the game: Indiana Hoosiers vs Ohio State Buckeyes - January 15, 2012 - College Basketball - StatSheet.com.

you would see the whole play and more importantly see through both players rather than straight lined.

That's how I've been taught to officiate such a play as well. The important part of this is that by stopping, you give yourself a steady view of the play.

Fpg?
 

I'm assuming fpg is fouls per game of course, but is this stat the total fouls per game that, even though given as an individual stat, is actually the total fouls per CREW, in games he was on?

I have no idea; I didn't really look at any stats, nor do I intend to. The link just proves that BLydic is correct.

I think many just default to penalizing the defense, like in this play. I default to penalizing the offense and most of the time I am right.

Peace

If you look at the first part of the clip, the portion that is in real time, you'll see the lead motion to the head coach that he had the defender sliding.

Now I personally have a charge as well on the play. I actually think the lead had a pretty good look at the play as at the time of contact he has no bodies between him and he has a decent look between the ball handler and defender.

Then why would he call it a block?

I think that he never looked at the defender - he got beat, was running, and turned his head and watched the ball handler the entire way. He never looked to see where the defender was...jmo.

I think he called a block, cause for whatever reason, he had the defender sliding in late. Look at the calling official right after he signals block. You can see the coach ask why it was (and since this is in the first half, we know for a fact it's the Indiana coach) and we see the official do a side step/slide to the right.

Not saying you're wrong but that's pretty basic stuff to watch the defender. At this level, that's a given.

Based on his telling coach that defender slid, I'm saying he may have focused too much on defender if that's possible. If you notice at last split second, defender slides right. As an IU fan, definitely PC;)

This one looks easier to call than the MSU-UNC call that APG posted here. I'd go player control. Seems to me though, from the majority of games I watch at that level, that these close ones are usually called blocks. And to be fair, they're often pretty difficult without slowing them down.

Changing my stance here a little...I think he did look at the defender, but he picked him up really, really late. And that's why he did the big slide move when the coach asked him what happened.

Without reading anyone else's responses. A1 travelled before starting his dribble. And then he committed a PC foul.

And not only did B1 get an initial LGP he also slid and got 2 feet down before A1 went airborne.

I wouldn't expect that travel to ever get called real-time.

Either would I

Maybe, maybe not. That portion of video is only shown in real-time and I noticed it. The slow-motion replays start after the travel. But it makes the incorrect call on the block even worse when reviewing the tape that A1 also got away with a travel.

Good pickup on the travel. Traveling on these types of plays is still something I'm struggling to judge correctly.

APG - thanks for posting

I guess I am in the minority here. From the first glance at the video, I thought the defender got LGP but then he slid over as the dribbler tried his best to avoid contact. I don't think the defender got his left foot back down on the floor, but this was a bang bang play. I do notice watching some college games on TV, officials seem to reward the defense even if they slide over into the offensive player to force the contact. Has anyone else noticed that?

Are you confusing the requirements for establishing LGP with the rules for maintaining LGP?

Youv'e got a point there!

Or the rules for maintaining LGP for a dribbler as opposed to an airborne shooter?

I say charge.

On a side note #30 for Indiana is Matt Roth from Washington, IL. I officiated his games from 5th grade through his Senior year. State record holder for most 3's made in a career. Great player and a great kid.

I'm with Wellmer, its a tough angle, but the defender looks to slide up underneth A1 while he is in his shooting motion. A1 takes a side step to avoid the contact and B1 then takes his side step to create the contact. I don't think you would have gotten much flak if this one was called either way, but I had a block also.

Your post shows a misunderstanding of the rules involved. Unless the shooter is airborne -- he isn't -- the defender can move in this way legally.

I'm with Rich. ballgame99, can I suggest that you review this thread by Freddy?

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...requested.html

He made a very nice document that shows the relationship between all the variables we need to observe in a play like this Here is the document: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...hl=en_US&pli=1

I say look at the video again. B1 establishes LGP then when A1 moves left B1 moves in the same direction. And B1 even gets both feet down again before A1 goes airborne.

The file linked looks like it has more to do with continuous motion vs block/charge and LGP, but it sounds like I may have a misunderstanding of the rule. What is the rule that talks about the offensive player having to be airborne? I've always worked under the understanding that the defensive player has to be set before the shooting motion has started.

Since this was an NCAA play I'm quoting the NCAA rule:

Rule 4 Section 35. Guarding

Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a legal guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal guarding position before the opponent left the playing court.
(Exception: Rule 4-35.7)


(the exception noted refers to secondary defenders in the restricted area arc)

4-Guarding (4-23?) pretty clearly states something to the effect of "the guard must have obtained LGP before the opponent becomes airborne" and not "before the opponent starts his/her try"

4-23-4:

Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without
the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal
position before the opponent left the floor.

Others have posted the correct rules for the main part of your question...I would like to ask you to get the word "set" out of your understanding of the whole block/charge scenario. The defender does not need to be "set" in order for it to be a PC call. Just a pet peeve of mine...

thanks guys, this is part of the reason I frequent this board.

Ditto for me. I have been questioning some b/c calls when I watch college games on TV. What I am taking from this is, as long as the offensive player has not yet become airborne, it's up to him to avoid any contact if the defensive player has gained LGP. The ones that I have seen that I questioned were the ones where the defender has gained LGP and then when he sees the offensive player may be able to avoid him, he leans in that direction causing the contact, and subsequently still gets the charge call. He may not move his feet, but his upper body absorbs the contact since he leaned that way. The offensive player does his best to avoid the defender but if he is not yet airborne, I am hearing it's still a player control foul. Am I correct on that? This discussion is great by the way.

How is the OP video any different than this one?:

Verticality Duke v. Ohio State - YouTube

Does this Duke player not have LGP as we have define throughout this whole thread.?

On this play it's possible the foul was for B1 bringing his arms down into A1.

The arms came down -- the player is no longer vertical so he is no longer in legal guarding position.

Totally agree with this assessment of the play. Plumlee played great defense until he brought his arms down and caused the contact.

I never thought the foul was for anything else.

Peace

fair enough I guess, but I'd like to see you get a shoulder in your chest and NOT bring your arms down...

Is that what you see? I see the defender initiating contact with his entire upper body prior to the shot. Jumps right into him.

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