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-   -   Lotsa T's for Some, Not Very Many for Others? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/85988-lotsa-ts-some-not-very-many-others.html)

Freddy Mon Jan 16, 2012 05:29pm

Lotsa T's for Some, Not Very Many for Others?
 
The recent thread on "Technical Fouls", combined with several crew and individual observations this past week, prompted the question, "Why is it that some officials, and in some cases crews, in the same geographical area, dish out a lot of technicals, while for others it's quite rare?" Here's some thoughts on possible reasons for the disparity. Comments and/or other perspectives would be welcomed.

It could be that...
...some rightfully have less tolerance for unsporting behavior on the parts of players and coaches than other officials. They, utilizing the unsporting technical foul for its intended purpose as a valid tool, are properly “taking care of business” and not passing off problems to other crews through shyness and neglect.
...they, due to their level of experience and expertise, are the ones assigned to the tough games with the teams that are tougher to handle. Those teams that deserve technical fouls are getting them from officials and crews that were given that game because of their ability as effective lion-tamers.
...other officials, due to shyness, lack of confidence, or a simple “chicken-hearted” attitude, are not properly "taking care of business" and, in passing up opportunities for justified T’s, are wrongly passing on unsportsmanlike behavior, and passing it along, unaddressed, to other officials who have the fortitude to take care of it as necessary.
...their communication skills are lacking, and little fires which otherwise never would have started all-too-quickly ignite into raging conflagrations which can only be put out by a member of the officiating crew having “the last act.”
...their play-calling is truly questionable and they bring upon themselves more anger and objections from players and coaches because of it, therefore T's are used as a sort of defense mechanism.
...they are too “thin skinned”. Due to personality or character, they, unlike others, perceive a strongly stated comment as a personal attack, or consider a standard, garden-variety complaint in the heat of the moment as a reason to pull the trigger.

Welpe Mon Jan 16, 2012 05:38pm

Yup looks about right.

26 Year Gap Mon Jan 16, 2012 05:53pm

I think being at either extreme is not a good place to be. Technicals are not something to brag about. You don't win a Most Technicals Assessed Award. And you don't get a Perfect Attendance Award for having a T-free season, either.

BillyMac Mon Jan 16, 2012 06:36pm

The Gray Hair Helps, It Helps A Lot ...
 
The coaches know me. I've been to the rodeo many, many, many times, in thirty-one years. They know that I will work my butt off for them, and their players. They know that when I make an occasional mistake, that I will allow them to question me, and that I will own up to my mistake. But they also know that I will not allow myself, or my partner, to be abused. No technical fouls so far this year, only a few last year. Reputation. Familiarity.

JRutledge Mon Jan 16, 2012 07:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 813967)
I think being at either extreme is not a good place to be. Technicals are not something to brag about. You don't win a Most Technicals Assessed Award. And you don't get a Perfect Attendance Award for having a T-free season, either.

Yep.

Peace

jTheUmp Mon Jan 16, 2012 07:23pm

You're forgetting one:

... it's just random coincidence, in that sometimes you get a string of games or a string of situations that require technical fouls, and sometimes you can go an entire month without a T-worthy situation.

Like my situation, for example: 4 Ts this season, 3 of which came in a single 8th grade game (one 'slam-the-ball-down-and-almost-hit-the-official-with-it-as-a-show-of-disgust' whacking, one T for yelling "get out of my face" at an opponent who was just guarding her in the post, and one "you gotta be f-cking kidding me" directed at the officials immediately after the second T).

The 4th T was an administrative T for adding a number to the book.

Other then that, I've been lucky thus far that I've had teams (and coaches) who are more interested in playing and coaching the game than they are in trying to work the officials.

rockyroad Mon Jan 16, 2012 08:24pm

It also seems (from the aforementioned thread) that most of the T's are coming in lower level games - Jr. High, rec. league, sub-varsity, etc. So someone who works a steady diet of those games - and the less experienced coaches who are on the bench - will probably have more T's than someone working strictly Varsity or College ball.

Sharpshooternes Mon Jan 16, 2012 08:51pm

I haven't been doing this for too long (second year HS) but I think good control early on prevents a lot of garbage plays later. If you can make it through your game with out the coaches being disgusted and the crowd not booing the entire time, you are probably doing a decent job. If you don't have to dish out a lot of technical fouls AND aren't putting up with a bunch of garbage from the players and coaches, this seems like pretty good balance.
I have only had to call a couple of intentional fouls and one girl for swearing. She was from an inner city school which has some of the rougher crowd. The coach came up to us before the start of the game and said, "Don't hesitate to give my players a T for swearing or anything else." :) Made me kinda chuckle. It didn't get out of control though.

doubleringer Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:35pm

First of all, I try not to think about "dishing out" technical fouls. A T is just another foul in the game of basketball. We don't give them out, we assess them when earned.

As far as finding rhyme or reason to why some call more than others, I think there are too many variables to come up with an answer. Some of it has to do with the schedule you work, a lot has to do with your experience level, and let's face it, some nights coaches and players just don't want to act in a sportsmanlike manner, and some nights we don't want to put up with it.

zm1283 Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:09pm

I know several guys who have no problem whacking a player but will take a lot of abuse from coaches without addressing their behavior. It's kind of weird really.

I agree with the OP. Most officials fall into those categories. As for myself, I have had fewer coach technicals last year and this year. That probably has something to do with me being better than I was a few years ago and seeing the same coaches/teams multiple times per season. Not saying I'm great, but I'm sure as we improve over the years, there are fewer objectionable calls.

dsqrddgd909 Tue Jan 17, 2012 07:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 814016)
It also seems (from the aforementioned thread) that most of the T's are coming in lower level games - Jr. High, rec. league, sub-varsity, etc. So someone who works a steady diet of those games - and the less experienced coaches who are on the bench - will probably have more T's than someone working strictly Varsity or College ball.

+1. Had an 8th grade girls game last night. We should have whacked both coaches for ABS after warning both, and my partner had to go to game management about a fan.

Rich Tue Jan 17, 2012 07:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 813967)
I think being at either extreme is not a good place to be. Technicals are not something to brag about. You don't win a Most Technicals Assessed Award. And you don't get a Perfect Attendance Award for having a T-free season, either.

I could go an entire season without a technical. I could have 3 in a week. After 25 years, I've learned one thing -- it has very little to do with me and everything to do with how "in control" players and coaches are. My line doesn't move much, if at all.

SE Minnestoa Re Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:18am

I don't have real thick skin but call few technicals. I think Billy put it well--I have a lot of gray hair and these games are not my first rodeo either. I think I communicate well, both verbally and non-verbally. My kids, who are grown up, always comment on my glare. It works in officiating as well as parenting.

bainsey Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTheUmp (Post 814004)
one "you gotta be f-cking kidding me" directed at the officials...

From a middle schooler?

That would likely result in a flagrant T in these parts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN
After 25 years, I've learned one thing -- it has very little to do with me and everything to do with how "in control" players and coaches are.

Would it be a fair statement to say, it can have much to do with how "in control" you are?

Rich Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 814180)
From a middle schooler?

That would likely result in a flagrant T in these parts.


Would it be a fair statement to say, it can have much to do with how "in control" you are?

No, I don't think so. Of course I feel I'm always in control. It's our job to be.

I've had 3 technicals this season and all were because of poor choices made by the coaches involved. Other seasons I'd go the whole season without a technical. It's a pretty meaningless statistic *unless* you say you've never called one in XX years or you say you've called 45 in a season in which case I'd probably wonder why.

bainsey Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 814181)
Of course I feel I'm always in control. It's our job to be.

Right. My point is, coaches know this fact, and it probably prevented more bad choices. It's tough to prove, but I believe, safe to assume.

gdudik Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 (Post 814138)
+1. Had an 8th grade girls game last night. We should have whacked both coaches for ABS after warning both, and my partner had to go to game management about a fan.

You say you should have whacked both. Why didn't you? If you say you should have whacked them, they obviously deserved it. Why did you let unsporting behavior go unpunished?

Welpe Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdudik (Post 814185)
You say you should have whacked both. Why didn't you? If you say you should have whacked them, they obviously deserved it. Why did you let unsporting behavior go unpunished?

Hindsight is 20/400 or something like that...

Loudwhistle2 Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:35am

RichMSN "My line doesn't move much, if at all."

I agree with this for the most part. I'll let my line move a little with a coach when I miss or blow a call, but I'm not going to eat a load of crap about it either.

dsqrddgd909 Tue Jan 17, 2012 02:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdudik (Post 814185)
You say you should have whacked both. Why didn't you? If you say you should have whacked them, they obviously deserved it. Why did you let unsporting behavior go unpunished?

Not sure. I was hoping the warnings would do it. I was also a little surprised that it was happening in an 8th grade game. I could tell my partner was reluctant, so I should have made sure that as a crew we were strong.

Scrapper1 Tue Jan 17, 2012 03:23pm

Had a double T last night. My first double of the season. A1 drives to the basket and charges into B1, and both players fall to the floor. Partner goes to table (probably a little too quickly) to report the foul. A2 comes over to help A1 up. A2 and B1 get their legs a little tangled and B1 then extends a leg to try to trip up A2. A2 turns and tells B1 to attempt an unnatural act. Whack! Whack!

Loudwhistle2 Tue Jan 17, 2012 04:27pm

Scrapper "A2 turns and tells B1 to attempt an unnatural act."

Wonderful word choice, still laughing!:D

letemplay Tue Jan 17, 2012 04:47pm

Saw a first
 
in a varsity boys game the other night. After hearing a bit from a coach and giving him a couple of half-hearted stop signs, an official hits his whistle and stops play...not for a T, but for a warning. He lets table and partners know he is warning coach, kinda like a DOG. Opposing team, who had ball at time (following no-call that I guess set off coach) now has to restart, put the ball back in play with a throw in and allows other team to set up press. Now the other coach is upset that play was stopped...and I think rightfully so. I've given plenty of warnings over the years, either during a dead ball or as I'm going by the bench in a live ball sitch, but never stopped play to do it...and, perhaps it's not that unusual, I can't remember ever seeing it.

Rich Tue Jan 17, 2012 04:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 814285)
in a varsity boys game the other night. After hearing a bit from a coach and giving him a couple of half-hearted stop signs, an official hits his whistle and stops play...not for a T, but for a warning. He lets table and partners know he is warning coach, kinda like a DOG. Opposing team, who had ball at time (following no-call that I guess set off coach) now has to restart, put the ball back in play with a throw in and allows other team to set up press. Now the other coach is upset that play was stopped...and I think rightfully so. I've given plenty of warnings over the years, either during a dead ball or as I'm going by the bench in a live ball sitch, but never stopped play to do it...and, perhaps it's not that unusual, I can't remember ever seeing it.

If I'm using the whistle, we're shooting free throws.

fullor30 Tue Jan 17, 2012 05:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 814143)
I could go an entire season without a technical. I could have 3 in a week. After 25 years, I've learned one thing -- it has very little to do with me and everything to do with how "in control" players and coaches are. My line doesn't move much, if at all.

Yup, I have what I feel also is a well defined line and if they pole vault over it, I'm calling it.

I always take a hit on 16, never waver, and some T's with me are automatic.

Have always liked phrase "Will a T make the game better?" it usually does.

SE Minnestoa Re Tue Jan 17, 2012 05:52pm

Originally Posted by letemplay
I had a partner stop the game to give an explanation to the coach of the defensive team. As soon as we resumed play (and steam is coming out of my ears) the defensive teams slaps a press on.

The offensive team coach gives me this look like "WTF".:confused:

Adam Tue Jan 17, 2012 07:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdudik (Post 814185)
You say you should have whacked both. Why didn't you? If you say you should have whacked them, they obviously deserved it. Why did you let unsporting behavior go unpunished?

So he acknowledges he learned a lesson. Good for him (or her). Now, let's dump on him. :rolleyes:

Adam Tue Jan 17, 2012 07:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 814300)
Yup, I have what I feel also is a well defined line and if they pole vault over it, I'm calling it.

I always take a hit on 16, never waver, and some T's with me are automatic.

Have always liked phrase "Will a T make the game better?" it usually does.

Usually, but I balk at the phrase because whether a T makes the game better really has no bearing on whether it was a good T.

Adam Tue Jan 17, 2012 07:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 814286)
If I'm using the whistle, we're shooting free throws.

Agreed. I've seen it done, and heard of guys doing it locally. I don't like it.

Welpe Tue Jan 17, 2012 08:18pm

Sometimes Ts can make the game better and other times they're needed so the game doesn't hit the toilet.

fullor30 Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 814328)
Sometimes Ts can make the game better and other times they're needed so the game doesn't hit the toilet.


Precisely, it makes the game better:eek:

Adam Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 814328)
Sometimes Ts can make the game better and other times they're needed so the game doesn't hit the toilet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 814354)
Precisely, it makes the game better:eek:

Usually, but failure to make the game better does not mean it was a bad T, and just because the game gets better without a T does not mean it was best uncalled.

fullor30 Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 814321)
Usually, but I balk at the phrase because whether a T makes the game better really has no bearing on whether it was a good T.

Why was it 'good'? Good for you? A good T is a deserved t, not given out of spite, malice, etc. It's applied because coach, player has crossed the line and needs a 'time out' It's residual effect is to make the game 'better' and controllable.

IMHO a 'good' t will always make the game better. In my experience I've never whacked someone only to have game go South, on any level.

fullor30 Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 814357)
Usually, but failure to make the game better does not mean it was a bad T, and just because the game gets better without a T does not mean it was best uncalled.

Huh? You lost me.....

Rich Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 814360)
Why was it 'good'? Good for you? A good T is a deserved t, not given out of spite, malice, etc. It's applied because coach, player has crossed the line and needs a 'time out' It's residual effect is to make the game 'better' and controllable.

IMHO a 'good' t will always make the game better. In my experience I've never whacked someone only to have game go South, on any level.

I have. I called a technical only to have the coach completely lose it and draw a second one seconds later. That was about 15-16 years ago, my last basketball coach ejection.

But it doesn't mean I wish I hadn't called it. Once the coach left, it was better.

Adam Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 814360)
Why was it 'good'? Good for you? A good T is a deserved t, not given out of spite, malice, etc. It's applied because coach, player has crossed the line and needs a 'time out' It's residual effect is to make the game 'better' and controllable.

IMHO a 'good' t will always make the game better. In my experience I've never whacked someone only to have game go South, on any level.

I base the justice of a T on whether it was deserved, not its affect on the game. 99% of the time, it works as it should, I just don't think someone should question the T because the game continued to go south.

biggravy Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:56am

I have called 12 in the last four years. No records before that but averaged about the same. All of them were no brainers, in my opinion. But I see a T as just a part of the game, another foul. Move on. In this same four years though, I've had a partner call just one. Collectively around here we allow far too much unsporting behavior to occur. This is stressed by our assignors and the state all the time. I feel the problem is the hang up on it being a big deal instead of just another foul.

Adam Wed Jan 18, 2012 01:03am

I'm not in the "just like any other foul" camp. I'm not scared of them, and will probably call a couple more this season, but I don't think pretending they're not a big deal is particularly helpful. It's the one call that, by it's nature and rarity, draws attention to the official. It's often a rally killer, and it can change a game. Those things shouldn't affect how we call the T, but they should be acknowledged. IMHO, of course, and YMMV.

Eastshire Wed Jan 18, 2012 08:00am

My count went to 2 last night as the varsity coach couldn't stop himself from giving his two cents during the JV game. I had called a violation for disconcerting the free thrower which caused both coaches to stand to confront me (I was trail in two man). I told the asst coach to sit, which he did, but he continued to harangue me as I was giving a quick explanation to the head coach.

fullor30 Wed Jan 18, 2012 09:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 814371)
I base the justice of a T on whether it was deserved, not its affect on the game. 99% of the time, it works as it should, I just don't think someone should question the T because the game continued to go south.

I think we are in agreement and parallel to each other. Possibly better worded from me would be the effect of a T almost always makes the game better.

Adam Wed Jan 18, 2012 09:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 814457)
I think we are in agreement and parallel to each other. Possibly better worded from me would be the effect of a T almost always makes the game better.

We usually are, and I was about to reword my statement the same way.

gdudik Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 (Post 814257)
Not sure. I was hoping the warnings would do it. I was also a little surprised that it was happening in an 8th grade game. I could tell my partner was reluctant, so I should have made sure that as a crew we were strong.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to dump on you, btw. Just curious why you didnt, having been in the same place myself where I was reluctant to call a well deserved T

fullor30 Wed Jan 18, 2012 01:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 814460)
We usually are, and I was about to reword my statement the same way.

Awww, give me a hug big guy:D

Adam Wed Jan 18, 2012 01:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 814509)
Awww, give me a hug big guy:D

Get on I-70 and head west. Meet me in Kansas City.


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