Judging a "judgement" call
 

It happened to me again a few days ago where one of my partners misapplied a very common knowledge rule.

Big cross-county rivalry game (same region) and we were in the Boys Varsity game. I'm trail table side and my partner is at the C. A1 drives to that basketbal and attempts a try. The try does not hit anything and he grabs his own rebound. Players look around expecting a whistle and my partner hits it and signals traveling. I figure, with a veteran official, he had him taking steps on the rebound so I don't say anything and we play on.

A couple trips down the court later he explains to the head coach why he called the travel. He tells the coach that the ball didn't touch rim. The coach knows the rule and immediately calls him out on it. My partner continues to plead his case that he cannot do that. We have some sort of switch so I'm now by the coach and he tells me the situation. I hate to throw my partner under the bus but I had to tell the coach he was right and we would talk about it during the next dead ball. Coach then gets on to me for letting him misapply the rule. I explained that I thought he had a travel after he caught the rebound.

Next dead ball I talk to my partner about the rule. He acted like it was the first time he had heard that. I had to show him the rule book at halftime. My question is when is it ok to come in and question a fellow official's "judgement" call (seemed to me he had a travel)? Would anyone have handled this situation any differently?

Same as the "hit the backboard so my partner called GT" thread of a couple of weeks ago. If you see it clearly, go in and ask "what do you have?" See if it leads to a rules discussion. OTherwise, let it go.

FWIW, I had a similar play a couple of days ago. Player did travel after retrieving the try. I called it -- and indicated specifically that it was after the recovery. Partner told me he was abouot to come in until I added the additional information.

Other than saying less to the coach, there's not much different I would do. I would have assumed the same thing you did.

The only time I think about helping is if my partner asks for it and I have definitive knowledge/clear look.

If the coach asks you about a supposed botched call your partner made the response I use is "My partner had a good look and you can ask him next dead ball." I would try to avoid long discussions with them as it just gives them ammo to continue to complain. Definitely would not pass judgement on a partner's call (good or bad).

This is excellent advice. Unfortunately, in the heat of the game and without more than a few seconds to "discuss" the rule interpretations, most officials who think they know the rule (but don't) will not listen to any kind of reasoning at all and you can't just stand there and argue. Then it's time to let it go and talk in the locker room.

As far as the OP throwing his partner under the bus, he ended up throwing himself under there as well. I would try and say something along the lines of "I'll talk to my partner about it when I have a chance" and not agree or disagree with what he called, would be sufficient to satisfy the coach and get out of there before you had to admit anyone kicked anything. But that's a tough scenario to find yourself in. That's one of those things that separates the men from the boys...

Normally I would say something like that but when he flat out gets a rule wrong what else can you say?

Agreed.

I likely would have made the same assumption you did and simply brought it up at half time.

I think telling the coach you will talk about it the next dead ball can lead to trouble.

I would say something along the lines of, "Coach, we'll discuss it at half time." Then at the beginning of the half maybe have your partner use his "I kicked it" card and explain that he misapplied the rule but won't make that mistake again.

I agree with Bob, if the whistle came immediately upon the shooter making contact with ball again & I clearly saw the airball. That would lead me to believe my partner is misapplying a rule as opposed to a judgement call.

No disrespect but I dislike working with the official of this mindset. I believe if one has definite knowledge/clear look there is no need to wait for a partner to ask for help. Why hoard info to yourself & then (usually) get in the lockerroom & throw it in their face :rolleyes:

"We had an IW with Team A in control coaches, we're going to get this play right & administer a throw-in to Team A on the endline."

There's nothing you can say. I would have done the same thing you did. Your partner didn't know the rule. Misapplied said rule. Then tried to make up some story to the coach.

This could all have been avoided if he simply told the coach, "i might have screwed up and I would love another look at the play."

This is a contradiction. If someone really thinks he knows the rule (but doesn't), he's not going to think he's wrong. So the second part of your comment will never happen. That's why there was a mess. You have to know the rules. You just have to. (not you, just a general comment)

I try to avoid giving a coach grenades to lob back at me or my crew.

I thought about that after I hit submit. What I should have typed was he should have shut his yap rather than just guess.

And Welpe - His partner gave the coach a missile so there is nothing you, or I could say, that is worse than what the partner did.

Right. But when the assigner asks (and they will), I'd rather say "I went in with the correct information" than "I thought he might have had something else."

Exactly so don't go giving him more ammunition by telling a coach your partner was wrong.

The coach already knows he was wrong...What do you do? Play stupid as well?

The guys I work for are taking assignments when the bolded words come out your mouth.

+1

That happens more than people realize. I have had to pull out my rulebook so they believe me when it comes to the rule. I almost always have a debate with someone during a tournament and we have to prove to someone what the rule actually says. So that is why if someone screws up a rule, unless I am 1000 percent sure I would almost never come in to change it. I might talk to them afterwards, but I would not change something they think they got right.

Peace

None taken. There's a couple of reasons, though, why I approach it that way: (1) If I run in there immediately it undermines my partner's credibility individually and ours as a team (i.e., one has to go in an rescue the other one) and (2) if we've pre-gamed appropriately he knows he can come to me if he's unsure and ask if I had a different interpretation.

Even if I have what I think is a clear view of the play I'm still farther away from it than my partner in most cases and may not have seen the thing that caused him to make the call.

Finally, and we've never called together so you have no way to know this, but I wouldn't just throw it in there face. I would would bring it up, but more like a "what did you have on that call." This happened this weekend, actually, where I passed on a call and one of my partners made it (even though the play was in my primary). We discussed what each other saw quickly during a dead ball and moved on, no drama.

Maybe but I'm not going to agree with him! That's a good way to make a name for yourself amongst your fellow officials especially if you know enough about the call but don't go in and provide help to your partner to get it right.

This happened to me in a scrimmage this year - the "R" for the scrimmage was someone who has been in the association for a while and I am relatively new to the association so he didn't know who I was at all - so I think he just assumed I was a new official. He was convinced that, during A1's throw-in from the endline, if B2 fouls A2 out near the division line, the ball is put in play using POI, therefore on the same spot on the endline. I argued with him and even pulled out the rulebook showing him you take the ball out of bounds at the spot of the foul. Everyone else at the scrimmage agreed with him (there were at least 3 other guys) because they figured he knew the rule. I was the only one arguing. It wasn't until another guy who was more experienced than both of us showed up, and agreed with me, that he believed it. And he still wasn't 100% convinced. It's just not easy to convince someone they are wrong when they know they are right.

You are incorrect sir. And what name would I be making. Let's look at the facts.

1. Partner makes an incorrect traveling call, that I had assumed was NOT for the reason he made it. Basically I assumed he actually HAD a traveling.

2. Coach asks him and partner tells coach incorrect rule. Coach calls him and partner tells coach he is wrong.

3. Coach asks me rules question. Coach is right on the rule. I agree with the coach. Therefore partner is incorrect (I still DIDN'T know the exact reason for the traveling).

4. If coach tells me what partner says (and it happens to be incorrect and opposite of what I just agreed with) I would tell coach I will talk with partner but it's obvious he is incorrect.

So if this gives me a "bad" name with other officials. Then I would say they can go F themselves. You cannot be wrong in life and NOT own up to it AND blame someone else for your mistake.

Your partner did all the damage he/she could. Playing dumb shows no integrity on your part. The right thing to do is say, "Yup coach you are right and I will talk with my partner." First chance I get I would discuss this. Hopefully he's receptive and he acknowledges his mistake and owns up and apologizes to the coach at some point for the screw up. To me that's the right thing to do.

There it is.

This is the best response I can think of without throwing your partner under the bus. Let him do the mea culpa, once you've shown him the correct rule.

Well that's your opinion and I think yours is incorrect.

Here's where you start running into trouble when you start telling the coach your partner is wrong. What do you gain by that? That's throwing your partner under the bus and is completely unecessary.

Great attitude. :rolleyes:

Back in the 90s era I'd agree, in todays "get the call right" era, he undermined his own credibility by misapplying the rule, a basic 101 rule at that. All you're doing is putting the game first by providing help to your teammate. In order of importance, it is:
1. Game
2. Parnters
3. Ourselves

I agree, if thats what you pregammed. Personally, my pregame goes a bit different. "If I come in to provide information it is for the good of the GAME & not personal. There is no need to make our discussion longer by asking me, are you sure, because I am not coming in unless I am 110%."

I didnt mean to imply that you did, but I have seen this act several times. It generally starts out with "what did you see." Then it goes to "well I saw it all the way & the ball never hit the rim, you called the travel before he could move so I know he didn travel, etc, etc."

I'm like, well why didnt you help him if you had definite knowledge?!?!
Some guys enjoy watching others make mistakes even if they are on the crew (which makes the entire crew look bad) :rolleyes:
They are hiring crews of 3 not 3 individuals like back in the day.

No, you refuse to play. Tough spot, but there's no reason to acknowledge it (your partner's admission) since you really don't know if the coach is playing you or not. Even if you heard your partner say it, just tell the coach you aren't going discuss a call you didn't make.

Just to clarify, are you expected to watch your area and your partners' areas to make sure they don't kick a rule?

I disagree somewhat. In a perfect world if you know a rule is being kicked, huddling with partners to go over the interp is better than getting it right at halftime. As you mentioned if your partner is adamant he is correct you can't have a hissy fit at half court. I've been guilty of a quick decision in past as to keep the game moving and as a crew we kicked a rule. Never again.

This is a tricky situation and you of course need to be careful as not to be judging calls as is mentioned in OP.

I'm not sure what you disagreed with - you appear to have been agreeing with me. :confused:

Multi-tasking
 

Negative. We are supposed to referee our 3rd of the court while seeing as many of the other players as possible, as we are listening to the coaches for timeouts, checking the clock after each whistle & taking a peak at the table for subs.

When a play/shot goes toward the basket, there isn't anything wrong with 3 offcials knowing where the ball is. Players, partner & ball, right?
Its tough to flex or back out of one without knowing where the ball is.

As we start talking about the higher levels, its even encouraged to sneak-a-peak on 3 point trys out of your area. Yes, to help our partners!

Hopefully by John Adams adopting some NBA principles it will trickle down to HS in another decade. Because HS is behind the times... I am just now starting to hear RSBQ & SDF at this level. When I got up on it 4 or 5 years ago, they were saying thats NBA talk :rolleyes:

Depends. ;)

Suppose the ball is in your area and it's contested. Then, your partner blows the whistle and signals "illegal screen." You later find out he called it for "moving while setting a screen, even though there was no contact." You (likely) won't get in trouble for not helping out here.

But, in the OP, it's reasonable to have an opinion on the play, so it's reasonable to try to verify the call / rule.

Oh, BTW...

There's only one "e" in "judgment."

This is also a when in Rome thing...

judgement

What a potatoe head.

LOL!!! I was thinking the same thing. Scary!!!! :p

Peace

Welpe, what, in your opinion, is required to not "throw your partner under the bus?" It seems to me that anything short of telling the coach that grabbing your own rebound is travelling is, by your definition, throwing your partner under the bus.

Telling the coach what a rule is after it's been misapplied doesn't throw your partner under the bus; he put himself there all on his own.

A similar situation happened in my game last night. I was lead and watching play in the post when the ball got knocked loose around the top of the key. I see it hit A2 in the leg in the front court and it's recovered by A3 in the backcourt. Given that it was loose, I doubted B has established team control, so I expected the backcourt call, but it didn't come.

I ended up in front of B's coach shortly after and he wanted to know why why the call wasn't made. I told him it wasn't my call and he'd have to ask my partner but I assumed my partner determined they had gained team control.

We discussed the play at halftime, and it turned out he had the rule wrong, thinking any touch by B during the loose ball negated the backcourt violation.

helps to read carefully

ha ha.............let's not discuss this now. How about at the half?

Giving the coach the correct rule is one thing but telling him that your partner was wrong is entirely different.

I like the way you handled your situation because you're giving your partner the benefit of the doubt. If we are 100% sure, we should go in and get it right with our partner before the game is resumed. Telling a coach your partner was wrong doesn't mollify the situation, it exacerbates it.

huh???:confused:

So the coach KNOWS the rule and that your partner got it wrong and asks you. What do you say or do? give him a stupid blank look?

What's wrong with, "if that's what he said, I think he misapplied the rule, I'll discuss this with him first chance I get."

Grow up man. Your partner screwed up and you're not going out of your way to put him in the spotlight. He then makes it worse by continuing to defend his position.

I am grown, thank you. I don't need you addressing me as a child.

The less we say to a coach, the better. When you start telling coaches your partner is wrong, you end up down a slippery slope that ends with the coach jumping both of you for screwing up. As I originally said, I prefer not to give the coaches any thing extra to throw at us. There is a way to deal with a coach that doesn't result in emasculating your partner completely (even if he's already started for himself). I still stand by that.

+1

If we think our partner has misapplied a rule and a brief conversation can correct it then I think we should try to do that.

If, however, in the case of the OP we think our partner misapplied a rule but let it go b/c we arent sure of exactly what they called then I don't think it's a good idea to tell the coach your partner was wrong. That opens up a can of worms that I have seen get REALLY ugly. it undermines your partner, undermines you as a crew, and gives the coach ammo for the rest of the game and beyond.

You can let the coach know that he has a correct interpretation of the rule and let him know you will discuss it with your partner at half time or after the game. In the case of the OP, I'm not going to have a conversation with the Coach about what he and my partner discussed or my partner's interp of the rule right then and there. There is too much that could get lost in translation.

I think you either try to correct it when it happens or live with call, discuss it in the lockerroom, and give the official who misapplied the rule the opportunity to man up and tell the coach he kicked it.

Why even participate? What purpose does it serve other than making you look better at your partner's expense?

Well said, VaTerp, I agree completely.

Snaqs, IMO it falls into the same category as being a shoulder to cry on for the coach after your partner whacks him.

I'm officiating the game. In this instance, I'm doing my best to ignore him without being dismissive. Timeout and I have other duties to attend to, I'm near him and I'm moving away for a better angle or closing down. I'm having very little, if anything to say to him.

Stay away.

I have two thoughts on the OP:

If you are working a varsity game with a partner who doesn't know this rule, chances are there were other problems as well.

It would have to be something really blatant before I would stop the game to question my partner's traveling call.

+1

And it doesnt really make them look better. Because the same coach is talking about you just like he talks about the incorrect calling official! They are not our friends, so whether they are right or wrong, loyalty to our partners for 32 minutes should be the goal.

After an obvious IC the game is already stopped & re-gaining possession of an airball is really blatant, no?

Nothing you can do on this... you did the right thing. Hope he gets it right next time. Unfortunately, some guys don't study the rules and that will hurt their careers, not yours.

"Coach, I didn't see the whole play. I'll ask my partner about it at halftime."

Not necessarily. If you have a clear view of the play, including his feet, sure. But that's not likely in a two-man game, or even three if there are a lot of players around the rebounder.

My #1 rule of officiating: Never believe what a coach claims another official said.

;)

Not in the OP, apparently.

On a drive to the rack, I dont know where else the officials are looking. Generally, thats where all the action areas are. IMO, if you dont have the ball & there are no engaged matchups in your primary then you should be officiating where you could get hurt next... on plays to the basket, that would be in the paint where the obvious airball was shot & subsequently recovered by the shooter.

I have worked with "ECA guys" (exclusive coverage area) who work their 3rd whether players are there or not, so I understand how it could be missed. I've also called fouls from the L & partners arent able to help with if the ball went in or not, so I can understand how it could be missed.

I guess thats why we savor those nights where we have a sharp crew of 3 & they all have crew chief tendencies! Those have been my easiest & most enjoyable games to work.

Actually, in a 2 man crew it's MORE likely for the off-official to be looking at the same place as his partner because the Trail would have had the origin of that drive and positioned himself to see the whole play.

In a 3-man crew if I'm opposite the Lead I'm less likely to be watching all that action as I would be positioned to see all the weakside activity and I would have a whole lot of bodies between me and A1 catching his airball.

While I believe that the L should get over there unless its an immediate drive off a swing pass, what you say makes good sense!
BUT :) depth off the endline along with pinching the paint gets a better look at both action areas.

What the heck is the T watching in your sitch? Not too often do we see guys still setting screens on drives to the basket or defenders bodying up a player at the 3 point line.

In the OP, based on the C making the call, I'm assuming the drive originated in the C's primary and ended there likewise. As the Trail I would have long ago looked away from the ball and down into the paint, maybe even hedging towards becoming the new C if the Lead has closed down. My eyes would not have been on A1 unless he came into the paint going to the front of the rim.

Not on A1 but at least you would know what the ball did, no?

If a coach asks me what a rule is, I tell him what the rule is.

I will generally not comment to them on my partner's potential misapplication of a rule.....I simply tell them I have no info on the call and they need to consult my partner about what they did or did not call.

Good Approach ...
 

Agree. Just take out the word, "generally".

If a coach politely asks me if a field goal from behind the arc is worth three points, I'm not going to pretend that it's not. He knows the rule, and I know the rule.

AKA the "he needed killin" defense.

I use generally because if my partner calls something that is a clear misapplication n of the rule and I'm asked by the coach before I get to address it, I'll acknowledge the coach's point and then go deal with it.

Example: Throwin form the frountcourt endline that is thrown over everyone's head into the backcourt where A1 goes to get it. Partner calls a backcourt violation as soon as A1 first touches the ball.....and coach says "hey, i thought that was legal". I'll acknowledge the coach and then go to my partner.

Bodies in between I doubt I'll see his feet.

That's my point.

And even if you did think you saw his feet, if your partner right in front of him calls a travel, are you going to go over and question it?

It is unlikely that I would.

This thread needs to quit happening in my games.

Last night, my partner was administering a sideline throw-in in the front court as trail. The throw-in pass was made and had bounced in the middle of the floor when he blew his whistle for a violation. I was a little confused because there was no one near the ball at the time but decided the thrower must have stepped on the line and the whistle was a little late.

As I'm collecting the ball, the coach says "The ball was in the air." To which my partner replied from across the court "It has to be touched within 5 seconds." So I go to confer with him and explain that it's released in 5 not touched in 5 but he's adamant his call is correct.

The worst part is that in the locker room after the game, he asks the varsity crew while I'm looking up the rule and all three of them agreed with him. They were shocked when I showed them the rule.

Please, please tell me you are embellishing here. :eek:

I wish I was; they demanded the case book to try to find a reason why the rule didn't mean what it said.

Trippin'
 

Flashback from the "70's:eek:

Good grief. :eek:

Was watching the JV game before my V games last night and the exact scenario in the OP happened right before my eyes. Could not believe it. A1 throws up an airball from 3 ft. (clearly a shot) and gets his own rebound. L calls a travel (2 whistle game). As he's getting ready to administer the throw-in for Team B, his partner calls him over to discuss it. I am thrilled and expect them to get it right. Instead, they do nothing and give the ball to Team B. Good grief. I spoke with them in the locker room after the game and they said they weren't 100% sure that it was right/wrong so they went with what was called. I informed them they were wrong.

Even worse, my partners weren't sure I was right about the rule.

I emailed our rules interpreter and suggested he send it out in one of his "rules of the week" emails.

Man, this is killing me. All these varsity officials who don't know some of the basic rules.

Same refs who will make snide remarks if they find out you've been to camps during the off-season.

Used to work with those kind of guys around here. But most (if not all) of those type went to the new association that formed.

Thats what I was saying yesterday, dont provide info if you arent 100% sure.

It sounds as if we have a lot of posers amongst us, due to the economy.
Many of the newer guys I'm running across that dont know basic 101 rules truly believe that since they played/coached they dont need to crack open the book.
"I've played all my life & coached for 14 years." :rolleyes:

But I'm sure they have great court presence! :p

I agree. It reminds me of the two varsity officials I worked with (in a JV game) who insisted they had blown it by calling a kid for traveling when he caught a rebound while airborne and landed on his arse. They thought maybe his rear became the pivot.

Or the guys who call the "first to touch" violation in high school when it wouldn't even apply in college.

:D

ftfy. ;)

I see what you did there...

Bell Bottoms ???
 

Bet you a nickel that the official who made the call either had gray hair, or no hair.

Of course you did. I hope he did, too.

He did.

I don't know for sure, but there's no way he's older than 35.