Last Second Debacle?
 

Looking for some opinions on whether my partner and I handled an end of game situation correctly or not. Holiday Tournament 2-man crew, 3 point game with 5.3 seconds left. Team behind throwing the ball inbounds front court end line. I am the trail and the inbounds pass goes to a player in my primary who then passes to a shooter that misses the shot, gets the rebound and passes is out for another 3 point shot that goes in at the buzzer.

The defensive team complains that the clock did not start when the first offensive player caught the ball. My partner and I speak with the clock keeper who says he agrees that it didn’t start on time but doesn’t know how much time elapsed before he did start it. My partner and I don’t know how much time elapsed either so off to OT we go. Did we do this correctly by allowing the three point shot?

A couple thoughts, usually I may peek to see if the clock starts in that situation but the initial offensive player was dangerously close to the three point line and I wanted to make sure he wasn’t on the line if he took the shot. Also, after we got into the locker room my partner says that he noticed the clock hadn’t started after the pass was being made to the first three point try. If he would have stopped it then, what options do we have here? Start the play over at 5.3 seconds or run off the necessary time and inbound the ball at POI?

In the end the team up by three to start this whole mess won easily in OT so I felt like there was a bullet dodged but looking for opinions to handle a situation I hope doesn’t happen again. Sorry for this being lengthy but felt I needed to get all of the info explained properly.

Since neither you,your partner,nor the clock operator have definite knowledge of how late the clock started after first contact then you go with what you know-in this case that means overtime.For part 2 you would resume at POI but with no time off since nobody has an idea of how much time elapsed.

Let's say the shot is in the air, but you noticed the clock never started. If you were to blow the play dead, would the POI force you to go to the arrow (no team control), or is there any way we can rule the POI to be at the initial throw-in at 5.3 seconds? Or, would it be better to hold the whistle until someone controls the rebound?

If either one of you had a closely guarded count started, you could use that as definite knowledge in your second scenario. Meaning if your partner had blown his whistle, you could have run off that time and proceeded with POI.

However, with so much to look at and it being so quick, doesn't sound like there was any count started.

So you did it properly. Sometimes things just happen :rolleyes:

Since the shot missed the POI is the AP arrow. Had the shot gone in the POI would be end line throw in. There was another thread where we hit this topic pretty hard, don't recall off hand which one though.

In a case like this, if I'm T (responsible for the last second shot), I'm counting off in my head so that if I take a peak at the clock and notice that it didn't start, I have definite knowledge. Counting like that has served me well on multiple occasions...

If there is any learning from this it is to pregame the end of game clock situation. One of you needed to have the clock in this situation - I don't know how you guys can still work 2-man in Oregon. Most likely the lead as it sounds like you as trail had the ball.

Since you didn't have definite knowledge as to the time that elapsed before the clock was started, there is nothing you can do.

+1.

On this play, the L should've taken a look at the clock once the ball was inbounded to the T's primary, too.

Okay, so let's talk about how this works, exactly.

Let's say I'm L and my T is inbounding. 3 seconds on the clock. I see the T chop, and I look and the clock doesn't start.....now what do I do?

Start counting in my head? What happens when I reach zero in my head? Do I blow my whistle and call the play dead? What if the ball is in the air on a shot when my self count reaches zero?

You kill the play once you see the clock didn't start and start over.

Even if the ball is in the air on a try and it goes in? Cancel the basket?

No... you kill the play immediately after the ball is inbounded before the team can shoot. If you do not recognize the clock is stuck until a player is in the shooting motion, I would withhold the whistle.

No. I would think that you would know that if the shot is in the air when you blow the whistle, you do not cancel the basket.

You asked "Let's say I'm L and my T is inbounding. 3 seconds on the clock. I see the T chop, and I look and the clock doesn't start.....now what do I do?"

I answered, "You kill the play once you see the clock didn't start and start over."

Yes, I'm aware that a whistle doesn't cancel a shot attempt, but you said "kill the play." When you say "kill the play," to me that means kill the basket as well.

At .3. I hold my whistle. Blowing the play dead is a moot point. If the ball is caught, blow your whistle then and end the game. If it is tipped/tapped, the games ends on the made or missed tip/tap.

You kill the play when you see the clock did not start. Therefore, there is no shot, therefore no basket to worry about. Play was killed before any of that could transpire. That is what BktBallRef said.

During a close game, I often go to the timer with about 120 to 60 seconds left, who is usually a high school kid*, and tell them s/he's doing a great job so far. I then remind him/her that the most important thing you do from here on in is to start the clock when my (or his) arm "chops in time".

There are surprisingly many opportunities to do this: timeouts, "checking" to see if we're in the bonus, regular throw-ins near the table, etc.

I always make sure to thank the table for their help in making sure that the game went off without any problems.

I can't remember the last time that I've had a timing issue like yours in a close game.

In 98% of all the games I work, HS and club, the table is manned by HS kids. About 1 game in 3 I see new faces.

I'mm 99% certain that the current play starts with three seconds, not 3/10 second.

Great stuff. Game awareness is very underrated. The ball was inbounded to someone, the non-primary official is the best one to ensure the clock started. He has two choices: stop the play if it did not start, or keep his own count mentally. If the first shot goes in, there really is no issue, but he can take more time off due to "definite knowledge" at his discretion. (I would not do that.) If the first shot is missed, he then has the chance to blow the whistle and say the game ended when his "definite knowledge" hit 5.3. The tricik here is you better be right and not early. Being right makes you unbelievably good; being wrong makes you the guy from RichMSN's video.

Very tough to do, which is why officating is such a challenge. You have to be hyperaware, very quick mentally to process all of this, integrate with your partner, be 100% correct, make a decision, and sell it confidently, all within a short period of time.

You did not screw anything up, IMO. We cannot always control the table, and they do make some mistakes. That's why the big boys have the TV replay.

Thanks
 

To everyone that took the time to read this situation and weigh in. Most everyone agrees how we should have handled it and that was my initial thought as well.

I usually view this site from the outside and just take in all of the information, but now I believe I will get involved a bit more. Thanks again for the positive feedback.

I'm 100% sure. I mistook the period as a decimal......Thanks for giving me a 1% benefit of the doubt :eek:

Worth the read
 

Threads like this one reflecting on a difficult, real life situations, make this forum very enriching. Thanks for all your help.

*group hug* :)

Agree, I do likewise, especially during Rec Games when mom and pop are at the table. Good, positive feedback to let them know we thank them for volunteering their time and appreciate their efforts can go a long way.

Most of my V games this yr have been manned by Officials from our Association who do a great job. Been lucky there!

Although the clocks starts prematurely in this NFHS interp one can take some guidance from it and apply the concept to the given situation in which the clock fails to start properly.

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Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10

SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)