Goaltending on Backboard Slap

[Tio]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

He thought it was a judgment call, do you make it a habit to challenge your partners' judgment calls?

This is not a judgment call. The official incorrectly assessed a goaltending violation on a play due to not knowing the rule. If it were a close game and resulted in a technical foul on the coach the play went against shame on us. We can all be better that allowing that to happen.

On rules plays, I think the crew MUST get the interpretation correct at the expense of the calling official's ego. On judgment calls, you let your crew live and die.

As the crew chief, the supervisor has given him added authority for situations such as this. If he was the U1 or U2 then all you can do is provide the CC with information and hope they do what is right for the game.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Tio

This is not a judgment call.

Did you read Rickman's followup post?

Originally Posted by rickman

I thought that he had B1 touching the ball on its way down. I didn't know he was misapplying the backboard rule.

Whether the ball is on its way down IS a judgment call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Tio

This is not a judgment call. The official incorrectly assessed a goaltending violation on a play due to not knowing the rule. If it were a close game and resulted in a technical foul on the coach the play went against shame on us. We can all be better that allowing that to happen.

On rules plays, I think the crew MUST get the interpretation correct at the expense of the calling official's ego. On judgment calls, you let your crew live and die.

As the crew chief, the supervisor has given him added authority for situations such as this. If he was the U1 or U2 then all you can do is provide the CC with information and hope they do what is right for the game.

Maybe in your world. We have no "crew chiefs" here (other than for scheduling purposes in some conferences) and the R only has the power to resolve disagreements on whether goals count or not and to rule on items not specifically covered in the rules (these are specifically outlined in the NFHS Officials Manual).

Snaq's point is that the off official *thought* the ball got touched on the way down -- it wasn't obvious to him it was called only because the backboard was slapped. In that situation, do you actually stop the game...on a guess?

[Tio]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Did you read Rickman's followup post?



Whether the ball is on its way down IS a judgment call.

oops....didn't see that. Yes, if he thought the defender touched the ball then there is nothing you can do other than review player coverage on tape to ensure that he had an open look.

My initial read was that he called the violation solely for the contact with the backboard.... this is among the most frequently misinterpreted rules.

[tomegun]

Well, it seems like Tio is trying to be the crew chief of this thread. Honestly, all of that crew chief talk lost me. I think once you are used to being the R or crew chief you can have a pregame and game without letting everyone know you are the R. Your posts seem kind of heavy-handed with the crew chief responsibility.

By the way, I agree with mbyron - goaltending and/or giving a T for slapping the backboard are both judgement calls.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Well, it seems like Tio is trying to be the crew chief of this thread. Honestly, all of that crew chief talk lost me. I think once you are used to being the R or crew chief you can have a pregame and game without letting everyone know you are the R. Your posts seem kind of heavy-handed with the crew chief responsibility.

Really. I know it's a trite camp saying, but everyone should have an R's mentality. The ability to take charge and handle situations. My regular partner does that quite well as (I think) do I - I can't imagine having to clean up one of his situations and vice versa. I do work with others who are not this strong and I'm, essentially, the R regardless of who checked the books and tossed the opening jump.

In football, the crew chief (the R) does have the final say on a play where two officials disagree and won't yield their calls, but it's a "power" I'm loathe to use and for good reason. It does little for crew harmony when I'm heavy handed and I learned this the hard way. Everyone know I'm the crew chief there (since I'm the only one wearing a white hat) and I spend most of my time trying to convince everyone that I'm just working one of the 5 positions and have my own responsibilities.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Tio

oops....didn't see that. Yes, if he thought the defender touched the ball then there is nothing you can do other than review player coverage on tape to ensure that he had an open look.

My initial read was that he called the violation solely for the contact with the backboard.... this is among the most frequently misinterpreted rules.

The T did call the violation strictly because of the contact with the backboard. He did not think the defender contacted the ball at all.

The C (our OP for this thread), however, had no way of knowing. My point is, if my partner makes this call and I don't know why, I'm going to assume he knows the rule and saw something I didn't. I'm not stopping the game to correct him, most likely.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Tio

On rules plays, I think the crew MUST get the interpretation correct at the expense of the calling official's ego. On judgment calls, you let your crew live and die.

As the crew chief, the supervisor has given him added authority for situations such as this. If he was the U1 or U2 then all you can do is provide the CC with information and hope they do what is right for the game.

Absolutely nothing wrong with these statements.

In my area, the assignor usually books the most experienced official as the R. That doesn't mean he can't screw up or is always right. But if there's a screwup, guess he the assignor is calling. So while there may not be anymore authority per the rule book, there is an expectation from the assignor. If that's not the case in your area, great.

Nowhere did he say he would change the call. He made it clear that the calling official would have to change the call.

If you know I misapplied a rule and you don't have the balls to come to me and discuss it, then you don't have an R's mentality.

[Tio]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Well, it seems like Tio is trying to be the crew chief of this thread. Honestly, all of that crew chief talk lost me. I think once you are used to being the R or crew chief you can have a pregame and game without letting everyone know you are the R. Your posts seem kind of heavy-handed with the crew chief responsibility.

By the way, I agree with mbyron - goaltending and/or giving a T for slapping the backboard are both judgement calls.

HaHa..forgive me...truly we should all strive to have a Crew Chief mentality even if not assigned on paper.

I am extremely passionate about the game. As an official, I go into each game with the following goals (in order of importance):

1. Do what's best for the game
2. Do what's best for the crew
3. Do what's best for me

First and foremost my first priority is to do what is right for the game...always. I heard this at a camp many years ago and have taken it with me.

It drives me crazy when we miss a play...at a crucial juncture of a game then compound it with a technical foul against the team the incorrect call went against. We don't need the tech. if we get the play right, plain and simple.

I don't get all of my plays right...but I do know the rules very well and will not allow a rule to be misapplied in my games.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Tio

I don't get all of my plays right...but I do know the rules very well and will not allow a rule to be misapplied in my games.

Must make for long games with all the IW's.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Must make for long games with all the IW's.

You have a lot of rule misapplications in your games?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Must make for long games with all the IW's.

That's just it. If I "know" a rule is being misapplied, I'll talk to my partner about what she saw. But if there's even a slight chance she saw something I didn't, I'm not even asking.

I've corrected backcourt calls from lead when the throw came from my primary. I've also let quite a few go when it wasn't clear cut.

For the OP, as bob said, I might talk to my partner and I might not, it's likely to be dependent upon how obvious it is that the ball wasn't touched.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You have a lot of rule misapplications in your games?

There are plenty of them if you really wanted to dig into a game film. Its just a matter of which hornet's nest you want to kick.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

There are plenty of them if you really wanted to dig into a game film. Its just a matter of which hornet's nest you want to kick.

Game film? What does an IW, as stated in your previous post, have to do with looking at game film? I guess I should have asked, "Do you see a lot of rule misapplications in your games while officiating?" That's the discussion.

I agree that there are judgment calls that are made in every game that are wrong. But a bad judgment call is not a rule misapplication. As I said earlier, if we were working together and you knew I misapplied a rule, I would hope you would come to me and discuss it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The T did call the violation strictly because of the contact with the backboard. He did not think the defender contacted the ball at all.

The C (our OP for this thread), however, had no way of knowing. My point is, if my partner makes this call and I don't know why, I'm going to assume he knows the rule and saw something I didn't. I'm not stopping the game to correct him, most likely.

Exactly.