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-   -   Did I drop kick one? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/84513-did-i-drop-kick-one.html)

fullor30 Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:43pm
Did I drop kick one?
 
Girls varsity tonight. A1 is on floor( I can't remember how she got there, loose ball and she recovered probably) holding ball while on her back defenders are reaching down trying to grab ball. A1 swings arms from side to side slightly rolling from side to side(let's call it one cheek up if you will) Shoulders turning almost perpendicular to floor to give you a visual.

I call travel. Coach disagrees, I tell him it's a travel by rule he tells me no it isn't.

'A player while on his/her back may pass shoot dribble or call a timeout. He/she may not roll over' per casebook4-44-5b is all I could find. is the act of rolling travelling? Is rolling over just that, rolling over? I couldn't find anything else to support my case, so did I kick it? I felt the girl was gaining an advantage from rocking from side to side.

Clearly, it may be a 'I have to see it' moment. Is the fact she was rolling enough to justify my call?

Bring it on, I promised to email coach ruling and I may have to choose fried, poached or scrambled egg on my face.

I will say, I've never had my judgement questioned before in this situation on many levels of ball.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 805524)
Girls varsity tonight. A1 is on floor( I can't remember how she got there, loose ball and she recovered probably) holding ball while on her back defenders are reaching down trying to grab ball. A1 swings arms from side to side slightly rolling from side to side(let's call it one cheek up if you will) Shoulders turning almost perpendicular to floor to give you a visual.

I call travel. Coach disagrees, I tell him it's a travel by rule he tells me no it isn't.

'A player while on his/her back may pass shoot dribble or call a timeout. He/she may not roll over' per casebook4-44-5b is all I could find. is the act of rolling travelling? Is rolling over just that, rolling over? I couldn't find anything else to support my case, so did I kick it? I felt the girl was gaining an advantage from rocking from side to side.

Clearly, it may be a 'I have to see it' moment. Is the fact she was rolling enough to justify my call?

Bring it on, I promised to email coach ruling and I may have to choose fried, poached or scrambled egg on my face.

I will say, I've never had my judgement questioned before in this situation on many levels of ball.

You NAILED IT!!! TRAVELING!!! Your description of raising one cheek and then the other sealed the deal. I would have him take you out for a nice Italian dinner. :D

MTD, Sr.

JugglingReferee Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:32am
From what I read, the player is laying on the court on her back, fully horizontal.

For the shoulders to be almost perpendicular to the floor sounds like considerable movement. Travel.

Nevadaref Sat Dec 17, 2011 04:19am
In my opinion the coach is correct. We have had a couple of previous threads on this. The fact is that the NFHS has never clearly defined "roll over" so it is a gray area.

For me, I won't penalize just because there is considerable movement or the player gains an advantage, the player must actually violate a rule. Players do all sorts of things during a game which entail considerable movement or in an attempt to gain an advantage and that's what players should do. They are trying to get the upper hand and win the game. What we must decide is if a player is gaining an illegal or unfair advantage. So what is unfair about turning to the side when holding the ball while on the floor? That seems like a smart play and protecting the ball.

My definition of "roll over" means to turn more than 180 degrees, so a player on his/her back would have to flip to his/her front before I will deem it a traveling violation. Turning to one side or even rocking from side to side is not rolling over.

Just focus on the definition of the word "over."

fullor30 Sat Dec 17, 2011 08:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 805559)
In my opinion the coach is correct. We have had a couple of previous threads on this. The fact is that the NFHS has never clearly defined "roll over" so it is a gray area.

For me, I won't penalize just because there is considerable movement or the player gains an advantage, the player must actually violate a rule. Players do all sorts of things during a game which entail considerable movement or in an attempt to gain an advantage and that's what players should do. They are trying to get the upper hand and win the game. What we must decide is if a player is gaining an illegal or unfair advantage. So what is unfair about turning to the side when holding the ball while on the floor? That seems like a smart play and protecting the ball.

My definition of "roll over" means to turn more than 180 degrees, so a player on his/her back would have to flip to his/her front before I will deem it a traveling violation. Turning to one side or even rocking from side to side is not rolling over.

Just focus on the definition of the word "over."
Afraid of that, If I can't enforce it by definiton, I think I'm stuck, I've always been premature in calling a travel here, anticipating the rolling over. Over is the key word.

Lord, I hate it when a coach maybe right.

Addendum: She was rolling from side to side, so one could say she was rolling over to the other side. As you say it is a gray area.

grunewar Sat Dec 17, 2011 08:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 805559)
We have had a couple of previous threads on this.
Yes we have!

I would be curious as to what definition most referee's actually use to call their travel in this type of circumstance - the rolling, as described in the OP, or the rolling as defined by Nevada. (Take a poll?)

bob jenkins Sat Dec 17, 2011 09:49am
I'm in general agreement with Nevada here (but I don't know if (a) 180* is the criterion, or (b) if the player violated that).

BballRookie Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:46pm
Scrum
 
For whatever reason, this reminds me of the points of emphasis this season. I forgot the exact wording, but it said something about the game of basketball never being meant to be played on te floor. The " roll on floor travel or not" seems like a classic example of this grey area. Im not saying a scrum is always going to have a travel, but they can come in the same situations.

I hope that makes some sense. Situations like this make bball te hardest sport to offiiciate.

Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors. This is being written from a phone with a 12 hour old baby in the same hospital room. Our first.

BillyMac Sat Dec 17, 2011 01:06pm
This Looks Like A Job For The ...
 
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or request a timeout. If the player is flat on his or her back, that player may sit up without violating.

BillyMac Sat Dec 17, 2011 01:08pm
Casebook Play ...
 
4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

Did she pass, shoot, start a dribble, request a timeout, or sit up? All those are legal. Anything else, like attempting to get up, putting the ball on the floor, rising, and picking up the ball, or rolling over, are illegal.

Now, how about partially rolling over? Let me get out my protractor.

BillyMac Sat Dec 17, 2011 01:18pm
Congratulations ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BballRookie (Post 805618)
This is being written from a phone with a 12 hour old baby in the same hospital room. Our first.
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4016/4...311ef18c_m.jpg

Try to get some sleep, because for the next several months, you won't be getting any.

BillyMac Sat Dec 17, 2011 01:19pm
Gets 'Em Every Time ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 805533)
Your description of raising one cheek and then the other sealed the deal.
It's the "old lifting the pivot cheek call".

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Dec 17, 2011 01:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 805631)
It's the "old lifting the pivot cheek call".

Thank you. It appears that Billy and I are the only ones that picked up on the most important piece of information in the OP.

MTD, Sr.

refiator Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:59am
I think you are splitting hairs. I have nothing based on your description.

BillyMac Sun Dec 18, 2011 09:47am
Having Nothing To Do With Pivot Cheeks ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by refiator (Post 805742)
I have nothing based on your description.
And I've got a travel.

(Man. I hate it when I agree with Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. It never turns out well.)

fullor30 Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 805838)
And I've got a travel.

(Man. I hate it when I agree with Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. It never turns out well.)
Billy,

Give me your reasoning, I see both sides and hopefully you can sway me to travelling

BillyMac Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:41am
Hey Fashionistas, It's The New Gray ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 805846)
Give me your reasoning, I see both sides and hopefully you can sway me to traveling
As Nevadaref stated many posts ago, it's a gray area in the rulebook. Maybe it's a, "When in my little part of Connecticut" thing. We've always been taught to call a travel if the player on the ground moves their body, not their arms, in any way that prevents defenders from grabbing the ball, like starting to roll over. If the player on the ground does anything else other than pass, shoot, start a dribble, request a timeout, or sit up, Connecticuters call a traveling violation every time.

Of course, the player could just lay there on the ground for up to seven minutes and fifty-nine seconds, if not closely guarded, but that's probably not going to happen in a real game.

fullor30 Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 805851)
As Nevadaref stated many posts ago, it's a gray area in the rulebook. Maybe it's a, "When in my little part of Connecticut" thing. We've always been taught to call a travel if the player on the ground moves their body, not their arms, in any way that prevents defenders from grabbing the ball, like starting to roll over. If the player on the ground does anything else other than pass, shoot, start a dribble, request a timeout, or sit up, Connecticuters call a traveling violation every time.

Of course, the player could just lay there on the ground for up to seven minutes and fifty-nine seconds, if not closely guarded, but that's probably not going to happen in a real game.
That's how I see it, it really is a gray area.

Say, if you reffed a game in Port Arthur Texas, would you be a Connecticut referee on Port Arthur's court? Ouch.

mbyron Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 805868)
Say, if you reffed a game in Port Arthur Texas, would you be a Connecticut referee on Port Arthur's court? Ouch.
Oh, well done.
http://ladyenews.files.wordpress.com..._thumbs_up.gif

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Dec 18, 2011 02:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 805868)
That's how I see it, it really is a gray area.

Say, if you reffed a game in Port Arthur Texas, would you be a Connecticut referee on Port Arthur's court? Ouch.

Fullor30:

I think that Billy is being modest. It has never been a gray area in NBCUSC, NFHS, or NCAA Rules since I started officiating (1971-72). The simple fact of intentionally rolling one's body as described in the OP is traveling.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Sun Dec 18, 2011 02:31pm
Mark Twain Used To Live Right Down The Street From Me ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 805868)
A Connecticut Referee on Port Arthur's Court?
Fabulous pun. Very creative.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...873bf2b5f7a1ca

Great book. Great author. Great movie, with Bing Crosby.

KJUmp Sun Dec 18, 2011 03:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 805524)
Girls varsity......

....I promised to email coach ruling........
Is this standard/accepted practice in your area?
In mine, if our assignor or executive director discovered that we were e-mailing HS coaches or AD's we'd be looking at a suspension, plus you can kiss any playoff assignments goodbye.

bainsey Sun Dec 18, 2011 03:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BballRookie (Post 805618)
This is being written from a phone with a 12 hour old baby in the same hospital room. Our first.
http://image.shutterstock.com/displa...e-17155153.jpg

Anyway, I have to agree with Nevada, too, as the rule clearly says rolling OVER. I also take that to mean a 180° swing.

Adam Sun Dec 18, 2011 03:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 805900)
Is this standard/accepted practice in your area?
In mine, if our assignor or executive director discovered that we were e-mailing HS coaches or AD's we'd be looking at a suspension, plus you can kiss any playoff assignments goodbye.
IMS, fullor does not operate in an association/assigner system.

BillyMac Sun Dec 18, 2011 04:18pm
Proper Channels ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 805900)
Is this standard/accepted practice in your area?
In mine, if our assignor or executive director discovered that we were e-mailing HS coaches or AD's we'd be looking at a suspension, plus you can kiss any playoff assignments goodbye.
Same here. Any communication between officials, and the schools we service, other than a simple game confirmation email, or a simple email inquiry about a late payment, must go through our local board secretary, or our local board assignment commissioner.

I got in trouble with this a few years ago. A rookie coach asked me after the game how his kids did in terms of sportsmanship, since it was one of his goals that season. I told him that they were great. He asked me to send his athletic director an email about it, which I stupidly did. My board secretary, and assignment commissioner, weren't too happy when they found out about it. Fool me once. Shame on you. Fool me twice. Shame on me. Man. I'll never make that mistake again.

fullor30 Sun Dec 18, 2011 06:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 805900)
Is this standard/accepted practice in your area?
In mine, if our assignor or executive director discovered that we were e-mailing HS coaches or AD's we'd be looking at a suspension, plus you can kiss any playoff assignments goodbye.

Executive director? What's that? Who do you work for? The Gestapo? :)

fullor30 Sun Dec 18, 2011 06:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 805905)
IMS, fullor does not operate in an association/assigner system.
I have probably 7-8 assigners I get Varsity games from.

That said, I try and get DVD of game from coaches via email............much to do about nothing around here

ga314ref Sun Dec 18, 2011 08:02pm
How does one roll over...
 
...without rolling? If you roll, you have traveled, even if it's a cheek, and thank goodness for compression shorts -- all players should wear them.

KJUmp Sun Dec 18, 2011 09:41pm
[QUOTE=fullor30;805924]Executive director? What's that? Who do you work for? The Gestapo? :)[/QUOTE
Executive Director of the state high school athletic association. The governing body of all high school sports in our state.
They establish the rules and procedures regarding our expected conduct with coaches and ADs. You want to work....you follow the rules.

fullor30 Sun Dec 18, 2011 09:49pm
[QUOTE=KJUmp;805955]
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 805924)
Executive director? What's that? Who do you work for? The Gestapo? :)[/QUOTE
Executive Director of the state high school athletic association. The governing body of all high school sports in our state.
I will say I don't email coaches to snuggle up to them for better ratings or favors. I've had rules questioned before by a coach and have told them I would provide it to them. I'm friendly with a couple of coaches and on occasion they've called or emailed me for some summer scrimmages. I've never heard of anyone being told not to email coaches or ADs in my area.

But like anything else, I just follow orders, so If IHSA said don't, I don't.

Johnny Ringo Sun Dec 18, 2011 09:51pm
Based on OP ... I agree with Nevada & say no violation.

I have tried to teach my dog the simple trick of rolling over. He almost gets there, but that goes back to original position. By defenition: he does not complete the roll over.

No Travel.

AKOFL Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:59pm
can you teach him to start a dribble then you can forget about the rolling over thing. :D

BktBallRef Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 805524)
Girls varsity tonight. A1 is on floor( I can't remember how she got there, loose ball and she recovered probably) holding ball while on her back defenders are reaching down trying to grab ball. A1 swings arms from side to side slightly rolling from side to side(let's call it one cheek up if you will) Shoulders turning almost perpendicular to floor to give you a visual.

I call travel. Coach disagrees, I tell him it's a travel by rule he tells me no it isn't.

'A player while on his/her back may pass shoot dribble or call a timeout. He/she may not roll over' per casebook4-44-5b is all I could find. is the act of rolling travelling? Is rolling over just that, rolling over? I couldn't find anything else to support my case, so did I kick it? I felt the girl was gaining an advantage from rocking from side to side.

Clearly, it may be a 'I have to see it' moment. Is the fact she was rolling enough to justify my call?

Bring it on, I promised to email coach ruling and I may have to choose fried, poached or scrambled egg on my face.

I will say, I've never had my judgement questioned before in this situation on many levels of ball.
Unless she rolls from her back to her side, I have nothing.

And there's no such thing as a pivot cheeck, no matter what MTD and Billy Mac think.

BktBallRef Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ga314ref (Post 805938)
...without rolling? If you roll, you have traveled, even if it's a cheek, and thank goodness for compression shorts -- all players should wear them.

Really? Where I can read this?

My rule book and case book says "roll over," not "roll."

Sometimes, I think people are just looking for an excuse to blow the whistle.

Camron Rust Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 805984)
Really? Where I can read this?

My rule book and case book says "roll over," not "roll."

Sometimes, I think people are just looking for an excuse to blow the whistle.
Agree.

zm1283 Mon Dec 19, 2011 01:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 805984)
Really? Where I can read this?

My rule book and case book says "roll over," not "roll."

Sometimes, I think people are just looking for an excuse to blow the whistle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 805992)
Agree.
Agree with you guys, bainsey, and Nevada. Roll over means you roll over, not rock from side to side. If a player rolls to their other side (back to front or front to back) I will call a travel. Otherwise, play on.

Adam Mon Dec 19, 2011 02:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 805983)
Unless she rolls from her back to her side, I have nothing.

And there's no such thing as a pivot cheeck, no matter what MTD and Billy Mac think.
Thank you. I'm so tired of hearing that crap.

Camron Rust Mon Dec 19, 2011 02:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 806000)
Agree with you guys, bainsey, and Nevada. Roll over means you roll over, not rock from side to side. If a player rolls to their other side (back to front or front to back) I will call a travel. Otherwise, play on.
Well, I'm not as liberal as you may think I am. I'm not going to call a travel if they're just rocking around a bit but I will if they go from flat on their back fully to one side. I interpret that to be rolling over.....they're on a different side of their body than they started.

JugglingReferee Mon Dec 19, 2011 07:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 806000)
Agree with you guys, bainsey, and Nevada. Roll over means you roll over, not rock from side to side. If a player rolls to their other side (back to front or front to back) I will call a travel. Otherwise, play on.
So you allow them to roll to one side, but not the other?

BillyMac Mon Dec 19, 2011 07:43am
I Always Keep A Protractor In My Pocket, Just For Plays Like This ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 806031)
So you allow them to roll to one side, but not the other?
How about 90 degrees left, then back to flat on the floor, and then 90 degrees right? This is a travel everyday of the week here in the Constitution State.

fullor30 Mon Dec 19, 2011 07:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 806032)
How about 90 degrees left, then back to flat on the floor, and then 90 degrees right? This is a travel everyday of the week here in the Constitution State.
You could say she was rolling over from side to side. I'm sure we are all in agreement its poorly written.

zm1283 Mon Dec 19, 2011 08:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 806031)
So you allow them to roll to one side, but not the other?
No. If it sounded that way it wasn't what I meant. I don't allow them to roll 180 degrees like Nevada said earlier. If they're laying on their stomach and roll to their back, I call a travel. If they're laying on their stomach and "rock" to one side to throw a pass, I leave it alone.


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