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-   -   "You suck" (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/84494-you-suck.html)

Chris Whitten Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:38pm

"You suck"
 
Middle school player looks partner in the eye and mouths "you suck" as he goes to table to report the foul. Partner immediately calls the TF. At the end of the qtr I found out what the kid said. Seems to me the blantant disrespect deserved ejection. Are a couple of foul shots and the ball enough penalty here?

For the record, the kid was wrong.

JRutledge Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:44pm

Are you asking should the action have been considered flagrant?

Peace

just another ref Fri Dec 16, 2011 05:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Whitten (Post 805453)

For the record, the kid was wrong.

For the record, whether he was right or wrong is not relevant.

MD Longhorn Fri Dec 16, 2011 05:02pm

I'd have tossed him. In fact, I believe I'd have tossed him from any of the sports I do.

Scrapper1 Fri Dec 16, 2011 06:41pm

In middle school, there's no question I'd toss this kid.

Ignats75 Fri Dec 16, 2011 07:04pm

8th grade. Buh-bye.


And then I would have my eighth grade son kick his butt in the parking lot. :D

26 Year Gap Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:17pm

"You sit"

JugglingReferee Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:32pm

"You done." :D

jkumpire Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:37pm

that's the time you pull a bar of soap out of your pocket and give it to him with instructions to use it on his mouth.

But then a classroom teacher can't do that today, so what can you expect from MS students?

It's awful.

Maineac Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:27am

"Whack! Get out!"

Adam Sat Dec 17, 2011 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by maineac (Post 805608)
"whack! Get out!" tm

fify

Maineac Sat Dec 17, 2011 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 805632)
fify

My apologies.... Thank you.

bainsey Sat Dec 17, 2011 03:41pm

So we all agree that's a flagrant in middle school.

High school?

Rich Sat Dec 17, 2011 04:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 805654)
So we all agree that's a flagrant in middle school.

High school?

Depends on the volume. If I am the only one that hears it, I may stick with just a technical. If the stands can hear it, he's done for.

In baseball, it would be an immediate ejection. I know it seems like a double standard, but we deal with those all the time. A basketball coach wouldn't get away with nearly as much as football coaches do.

Maineac Sat Dec 17, 2011 04:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 805662)
A basketball coach wouldn't get away with nearly as much as football coaches do.

Absolutely agree.

refiator Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:54am

Definitely a "T". Not so sure I'd rule it flagrant, unless it was loud enough for all to hear.

just another ref Sun Dec 18, 2011 03:30am

From the definition of a flagrant foul:

".....a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct."

I consider it to be unacceptable for a kid of any age to tell an official that he sucks.

Rich Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 805782)
From the definition of a flagrant foul:

".....a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct."

I consider it to be unacceptable for a kid of any age to tell an official that he sucks.

That's great, but pretty much all technical fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct fit that description.

just another ref Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 805840)
That's great, but pretty much all technical fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct fit that description.

If you feel that way, you should make pretty much all your technical fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct flagrant.

Rob1968 Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:19pm

Player: "Ref, you suck!"
Official: "Only when I use a straw ... And, by the way, that's expensive!" ... Whack!

Rich Sun Dec 18, 2011 03:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 805871)
If you feel that way, you should make pretty much all your technical fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct flagrant.

If the conduct was acceptable, we wouldn't be calling a technical foul in the first place.

JRutledge Sun Dec 18, 2011 03:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 805782)
From the definition of a flagrant foul:

".....a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct."

I consider it to be unacceptable for a kid of any age to tell an official that he sucks.

That means different things to different people and always will. There are some that want use to throw out players or coaches if they say "Jesus Christ." The problem is not everyone is a believer in the same religion or has the same values if they are. We can play that game with any number of words, not just these words.

Peace

APG Sun Dec 18, 2011 03:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 805782)
From the definition of a flagrant foul:

".....a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct."

I consider it to be unacceptable for a kid of any age to tell an official that he sucks.

All noncontact technical fouls involves an act that is unacceptable conduct. You failed to include the latter part of the definition:

"If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct.

Adam Sun Dec 18, 2011 03:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 805897)
If the conduct was acceptable, we wouldn't be calling a technical foul in the first place.

Exactly

NCHSAA Sun Dec 18, 2011 04:20pm

"You Suck"? Not vulgar in my opinion. Definitely at Tech though.

Now once a college player called me a S.O.B, needless to say that wasn't a hard decision to make.

Raymond Sun Dec 18, 2011 09:26pm

I have never called a flagrant T on anybody.

And in reflecting back on techs I have called I now realize I have never called a T on a coach for cursing. All the T's I've called on coaches have been for either outbursts and/or sideline antics.

Plenty of T's on players for cursing, but never anything flagrant or even close that I can remember.

APG Sun Dec 18, 2011 09:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 805952)
I have never called a flagrant T on anybody.

And in reflecting back on techs I have called I now realize I have never called a T on a coach for cursing. All the T's I've called on coaches have been for either outbursts and/or sideline antics.

Plenty of T's on players for cursing, but never anything flagrant or even close that I can remember.

I have called exactly one...a player attempted to kick an opponent and missed.

JRutledge Sun Dec 18, 2011 09:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 805952)
I have never called a flagrant T on anybody.

And in reflecting back on techs I have called I now realize I have never called a T on a coach for cursing. All the T's I've called on coaches have been for either outbursts and/or sideline antics.

Plenty of T's on players for cursing, but never anything flagrant or even close that I can remember.

I have called a Flagrant foul, but not a Flagrant T. I cannot imagine what words would be used that were not racial or gender driven that would require such an action from me. I am sure something will happen in my career, I just have not seen it yet.

Peace

Ignats75 Sun Dec 18, 2011 09:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 805952)
I have never called a flagrant T on anybody.

And in reflecting back on techs I have called I now realize I have never called a T on a coach for cursing. All the T's I've called on coaches have been for either outbursts and/or sideline antics.

Plenty of T's on players for cursing, but never anything flagrant or even close that I can remember.

In 8 years, I have called 2 flagrant fouls on players. One in a GJV game when a player literally threw a punch in a held ball situation. The other in a BJV game when a player driving to the basket was pushed in the back while he was in the air for a layup. he was pushed so hard he hit the wall 5 feet behind the end line.

I have ejected one coach in my career. It wasn't a flagarant, although it could've been so. But it was his 2d T so it was effective non the less. The coach yelled to my partner after the final horn as we were running off the court "You guys f---ing suck." When my partner told me what he said it was a pleasant short walk back to his bench to come up to him and assess him the T. My words were as follows, "Coach,since we have not left the visual confines of the floor, I am going to assess you a T for your outburst at my partner. Enjoy your vacation." (2 game suspensiom, $100 fine)

BballRookie Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:29pm

Difference in fouls
 
So help me get this straight: (in broad terms, the last being where I'm confused)

Intentional: end of game, team A needs a foul and clearly is not going for the ball when they push a member of team B. Not too crazy, but they'd been warned.

Technical: player drops loud f bomb, coach gets carried away, etc.

( here is where I'm confused)
Flagrant Technical:
A punch is thrown(that one is fairly clear, I think).
Low bridge, if intentional?
Saying "you suck"? (seems like a tech and a zero leash IMO)

With the administration of this call, do you point to the door, signal a tech, then clarify with the table the level of the technical?

APG Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:39pm

You have your base calls of a personal fouls and technical fouls.

Personal foul=live ball contact
Technical foul=dead ball or noncontact fouls

Personal fouls and technical fouls have different modifiers that describe what kind of foul it can be. That's where you get your double personal fouls, double technical fouls, intentional personal fouls, intentional technical foul, etc.

There is technically no official signal for when one had to DQ a player/ejected a coach. You just report the foul as a flagrant foul/T, inform the coach, tell the table to put 20 on the clock, and inform the player.

JRutledge Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 805987)
There is technically no official signal for when one had to DQ a player/ejected a coach. You just report the foul as a flagrant foul/T, inform the coach, tell the table to put 20 on the clock, and inform the player.

I called one Flagrant Foul and it was for an elbow to the fact. I first gave the Intentional Foul signal as I really did not know what else to do. Then when my partner came up to me and said, "You are going to eject him right?" I said sure I was and the signal I gave was the old "heave ho" signal after I reported the foul. I am not saying that is right, but I have yet to meet anyone that totally disagrees with that procedure.

Peace

APG Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 805988)
I called one Flagrant Foul and it was for an elbow to the fact. I first gave the Intentional Foul signal as I really did not know what else to do. Then when my partner came up to me and said, "You are going to eject him right?" I said sure I was and the signal I gave was the old "heave ho" signal after I reported the foul. I am not saying that is right, but I have yet to meet anyone that totally disagrees with that procedure.

Peace

If someone is getting DQ/ejected, then I almost always give the "heave ho" signal. It's a universal signal that no one will mistaken. :D

Ignats75 Mon Dec 19, 2011 09:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 805988)
I called one Flagrant Foul and it was for an elbow to the fact. I first gave the Intentional Foul signal as I really did not know what else to do. Then when my partner came up to me and said, "You are going to eject him right?" I said sure I was and the signal I gave was the old "heave ho" signal after I reported the foul. I am not saying that is right, but I have yet to meet anyone that totally disagrees with that procedure.

Peace

In both player cases, I followed the same mechanic. Think we could gt the NFHS to make it official?:)

REFANDUMP Mon Dec 19, 2011 06:19pm

If you can't handle a "you suck" that isn't even being verbalized without tossing a kid, I'd have to agree with him. A "T" is warranted, but nothing else.

Rich Mon Dec 19, 2011 06:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP (Post 806145)
If you can't handle a "you suck" that isn't even being verbalized without tossing a kid, I'd have to agree with him. A "T" is warranted, but nothing else.

Really? A 12-year-old mouths "you suck" and an ejection is over-reacting?

fiasco Mon Dec 19, 2011 06:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 806150)
Really? A 12-year-old mouths "you suck" and an ejection is over-reacting?

I don't know that it's an overreaction, I just know I probably wouldn't eject a kid for that.

Adam Mon Dec 19, 2011 06:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP (Post 806145)
If you can't handle a "you suck" that isn't even being verbalized without tossing a kid, I'd have to agree with him. A "T" is warranted, but nothing else.

Mouthing is verbalizing quietly, I'm not saying I'd toss every time, but your insinuation here is misguided. MS game? Have a seat, son

26 Year Gap Mon Dec 19, 2011 06:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 806159)
Mouthing is verbalizing quietly, I'm not saying I'd toss every time, but your insinuation here is misguided. MS game? Have a seat, son

+1 This kid will only get worse without the full complement. He may anyway, but this may help him to focus on what he should be doing on the floor.

BktBallRef Mon Dec 19, 2011 08:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCHSAA (Post 805914)
"You Suck"? Not vulgar in my opinion. Definitely at Tech though.

Your opinion doesn't matter. If that occurs in an NCHSAA game, then you'd better eject him.

Who said it had to be vulgar? Ever read the NCHSAA Ejection Policy? There's an item there under #5, "Disprespectfully addressing an official." Or do you think that "You suck" is a respectful thing for a 12 y/o to say to an adult?

And if you're going to use NCHSAA has your user name, then you need to make sure you're responding to appropriately to such questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP (Post 806145)
If you can't handle a "you suck" that isn't even being verbalized without tossing a kid, I'd have to agree with him. A "T" is warranted, but nothing else.

It has nothing to with not being able to handle it. A 12 y/o child has no business addressing any adult like that. Would you approve of your son addressing an adult in such a manner?

Technical foul, ejection, and whatever consequences come along with that. My guess is most kids won't make that same mistake again.

Rich Mon Dec 19, 2011 08:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 806155)
I don't know that it's an overreaction, I just know I probably wouldn't eject a kid for that.

It's not the word suck as much as it's the word "you" in front of it. It's personal. It would get a coach/player/anyone ejected from any baseball game. I get that we have a bit of a double standard, but I won't let a player stay around after that. Even a HS player is probably done after that.

I'll sleep well that night.

fiasco Mon Dec 19, 2011 08:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 806179)
It's not the word suck as much as it's the word "you" in front of it. It's personal. It would get a coach/player/anyone ejected from any baseball game. I get that we have a bit of a double standard, but I won't let a player stay around after that. Even a HS player is probably done after that.

I'll sleep well that night.

Oh, I have no problem with you ejecting a kid for that. I just think different things strike some of us differently. I think you'll remember we just had a discussion a week or so ago about how I'm going to automatically whack a coach who says something like "Call the damn foul," but I'm not going to automatically eject a kid who says "you suck." I can't explain why, the two just strike me differently.

Nothing wrong with it. Doesn't make you overly sensitive or me a doormat. Just the way it is.

NCHSAA Mon Dec 19, 2011 08:48pm

[QUOTE=BktBallRef;806170]Your opinion doesn't matter. If that occurs in an NCHSAA game, then you'd better eject him.

Who said it had to be vulgar? Ever read the NCHSAA Ejection Policy? There's an item there under #5, "Disprespectfully addressing an official." Or do you think that "You suck" is a respectful thing for a 12 y/o to say to an adult?

And if you're going to use NCHSAA has your user name, then you need to make sure you're responding to appropriately to such questions.


If opinions didn't matter then why is everyone posting on this forum? It's all opinionated responses. So, "You stink" or any other disrespecting remark is an automatic ejection? To the post where the player mouthed "you suck" I am going with a T, if a real turd then I could live with tossing him. Yelling it out, yes their gone.

I am in Tennessee to answer your remark regarding NCHSAA.

constable Tue Dec 20, 2011 02:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignats75 (Post 806052)
In both player cases, I followed the same mechanic. Think we could gt the NFHS to make it official?:)

Good idea but unlikely to happen. Makes to much sense for NFHS to do it.

bowlingref Tue Dec 20, 2011 03:15am

Had a girl from Eastern Europe call me a SOB in her native language. Had to laugh when one of her English speaking teammates told her that you cannot curse these officials they will give you a T. :)


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