Problem with a coach
 

Hi, I'm not sure if I should be posting here but I have a question regarding an 8th grade girls' basketball team. I've looked at league rules and they state that they have adapted NFHS rules. I need to know where to look for rules on how much play time, if any, each player should get.

My problem is that the coach is not playing every girl in every game. One player has only played about 3 minutes in 5 games. She has sat on the bench the last 2 games for no reason. Other girls are getting off the bench but for such little time (under 2 minutes in a game) that they don't have much of a chance to do much. There are 12 girls on the team and the coach tends to play about 5-6, including his daughter, for almost the whole game.

This coach has also said to one player that another girl on the team is hopeless. He seems to yell at the girls a ton & did that today in the middle of the game. People in the stands could hear every word. Extremely unprofessional! He doesn't teach the girls plays. They only have a couple of inbound plays & they try to press break. He has told the girls that by this age they should be able to create plays on their own. I do not understand that line of thinking.

Can anyone give me advice on how to handle this? Some of the parents would like to file a complaint. I would like to help them out & give them some rules or regulations to support their complaint. I'm not a coach or a ref. Just someone who loves the game & feels bad for these girls cuz they have great potential but no leader.

Thanks!

As far as NFHS rules, there are no rules that mandate or regulate playing time for anyone. The only thing NFHS mandates is that five players are there to start the game. Those kind of rules are going to be league adapted rules and thus you'll have to take it up with them.

I suggest if and other parents have issue with how the coach is handling the team, you either bring it up with the coach, or go to the head of the league with your complaint.

NFHS has no rules about playing time. Any such rule is one imposed at your local level. What kind of program are we talking about? Is this intramural, or is this a team representing the school against other schools?

Unfortunately for you, there's nothing in the NFHS rules that say a coach must have a player play a certain number of minutes. That kind of stuff is usually handled on a league basis.

You can file a complaint, but you have no NFHS rule to back you up.

IF the parents or school dont like it they can replace the coach. other than that its his team to run as he sees fit, or the powers that be deal with him.

sports, especially competitive ones, are not about equality, and parents that feel that they are are doing their kids a disservice.

This is an 8th grade girls "A team", private school. So, the team is representing the school as well as the coach, who, with his demeaning attitude toward his girls, did the school no favors. Parents of the opposing team were even appalled.

I did find rules & regulations where it says that the school's athletic association "shall create policies that provide for participation By all team members in all games".

So, I guess I will direct the parents to take it up with their the head of their athletic assoc. and have them reference that line in the regulations.

Thank you for letting me know that the NFHS has no set rule there.

Well, this isn't entirely accurate. Some leagues are explicitly set up with the understanding that kids are going to get playing time. That way, if your kid sucks, they still get to get out there and get some exercise. With obesity rates the way they are, that's not exactly a bad thing you know.

Once you get to the high school level, though, all bets on playing time are off. As it should be.

I am not saying that the girls should all have equal play time. Not at all. What I am saying is that I agree with the parents that all the girls should at least get some time to play. After all, I don't think parents pay $150-200 plus shoes & shooting shirts to see their child sit on the bench cuz the coach deems them hopeless. The only way they are going to learn how to play is if he works with those players in practice more & puts them in the games cuz that is where so much is learned. After all this is only 8th grade & it's a "no-cut" league so girls have the opportunity to learn the game.

This is pretty broad language. Loosely interpreted, practice, which helps prepare the team for each game, as well as the right to suit up for the game itself, could be considered participation. The fact is, at this level, I have never heard of any league which has mandatory participation guidelines.

If that is the case, then parents are basically paying a fee for nothing. I don't see how a Christian school can have a "no-cut" team and bench players w/o a good reason. There were no try-outs for this team. In previous years, all girls were played in all the games, but they didn't all have equal playing time. The same should happen here or they should have had try-outs and those not good enough should not have made the team. That way those parents would not have paid $150 to watch their child warm a bench. Just my thoughts...

That they're a Christian school means nothing.

No school should have that. If you think that a Christian school should be held to a higher standard, then I submit that all schools should be held to the same standard, since the issue has nothing to do with beliefs, but rather a stated policy.

A lot of these no cut schools just aren't about letting everyone on the team...its the dinero from participation fees and a markup on warmup jerseys.

Has someone approached the coach directly, school's AD (if there is one), the principal? Did the coach have a pre-season meeting with the parents?

The coach did have a very brief meeting with the parents after the second practice. It last all of 10 minutes at most.

After, the first game (the girls have now played 5 games) a parent did approach the coach with her concerns. She stated that one of the girls that he benched was a very good ball handler & although he has never coach that player before she could be a good asset to the team. He was even very demeaning to her & stated that he was the coach & she was not. (that game the girls lost. They had more fouls then points. The girls had no plays & looked awful. They only scoreed 16 points but had 18 fouls)

That same parent also talked to one of the heads of the athletic dept since her talk with the coach went so bad but still no changes been noticed. I am advising the parents to write up a coral complaint to the athletic assoc. and the principal.

If the league has a mandatory participation rule then the individual talents of the players should not be part of the discussions with the coach on this subject.

The middle schools around here all have A, B, and even C teams to maximize participation. One league even has mandatory substitution rules, going so far as to divide the 3rd quarter in half. At the middle school level, it happens all the time.

That said, it's up to the schools and leagues, so any questions and issues should be taken up with them. As has been stated, there's no NFHS backing here.

As for coach's demeaning attitude towards the players, that's an issue for the athletic director or, if you don't feel you're getting a response, you can go to the school board (or whatever the ruling authority is for this particular private school.)

I have a novel idea. How about let your kid work hard and teach them that not everyone is going to give them something? Parents in my opinion are ruining kids sports by complaining about everything instead of using those opportunities to teach them values of life. When I was that age if you could not play you did not play in the games. Playing games does not keep you kids from practicing hard or working on their games. Life is not fair and sometimes you have to work harder to get what you want.

Peace

Right, and if there isn't, then the coach is right. Parents trying to second guess the coach's talent assessment has got to be the primary reason people don't want to coach youth sports.

I don't think she knew what the league rules were at the time of that conversation with the coach. She was told by the head of the Athletic Assoc.. that he believed that coaches were to try to play each player for about a quarter. If a player doesn't play in one game the coach needs to try to play her for 2 quarters in the next league game.

If that is true, then this is not being followed & needs to be corrected.

Exactly. If you want to give her more playing time, you should get her into a Y league or an AAU league or something. Give her a chance to work on her game in the off season. Build her conditioning.

In previous years, this school has had A,B & C teams but this year there wasn't enough girls to split into 2 teams.

That being said this coach is mainly playing the girls he has had for the last 2 years & claiming the others are not good enough. Many of these girls do play ball in the off season, including attending basketball camps. I know of one player who gets up early every Saturday & Sunday morning to go to her local YMCA to practice her shooting & dribbling before the court gets taken over by games. To me, that says dedication.

Thanks for all the info & opinion guys!

If interested more in participation than competition than look for an Upward program. Around here they have various sports through the 8th grade level. My 7th grade son has Asperger's Syndrome and his brain is definitely not wired for competitive sports at this point in his life.

Upward is all about encouragement, fun, and sportsmanship.

And they still might not be good enough. That is what sports is supposed to teach you. A coach should play the best players most of the time. It is probably going to get worse in the next year or so for these players.

Peace

+1, BRAVO Sir

I don't know, it sounds like there's an actual participation rule in this league that the coach isn't adhering to. You're right, the off-season work doesn't mean they're good enough, but leagues have participation rules for a reason.

The bolded part below is starting to make me believe there is no actual rule or by-law stating so and that it's more of a "spirit of the league" kind of thing.

None of us have any idea what is going on and it really does not matter to me. The top players should play and all these little silly rules about who participates is mostly a problem. And when you get to HS there are no participation rules other than to limit how much a player plays, but not required that someone play at all. Also something tells me there is more to this than what we read here. There is a lot of hyperbole in these examples.

Peace

Sorry if this is harsh... but:

8th grade A team? Coach is there to help the team win, not to appease every parent of every player, nor to ensure that the 12th best player on the team gets onto the court. If your kid's not playing, get her some training and make her better so the coach will WANT her on the court. This isn't league ball.

Just so you know, the issue is not with my daughter. I only posted here looking for info to help other parents out. It is not just one parent but a number of parents who are raising concerns.

I believe the overall complaint as I talk with parents more today is the coach's attitude toward his players. He demeans them & makes snide remarks, even to the star player. He very loudly yesterday asked her during the 3rd quarter "what planet are you on?" among other comments. Parents from the other team were even appalled especially considering that she is probably the player who hustles the most on the team.

As I read the policies of this league, it is a "no-cut" team so the kids have the opportunity to learn & play the game. Sportsmanship & teamwork are suppose to be the main emphasis.

I will be giving the parents the info that I have found in the policy & regulations of the league. They can decide what to do from there.

And what does that mean? One or twenty does not make it valid. It just means that there are more that probably have little or not perspective.

Well none of us are there. I have no idea what you consider demeaning remarks and I am not sure what that means if they say it to the star player. That might mean they are treating them the same. Sounds like that is good if nothing else.

You are right, sportsmanship is the main focus, but that is not what you came here to complain about. You complained about the fact that players were not playing. Frankly it appears that if there were really any other major issue, you might express specifically what those are. That being said this is an officiating board, not a parent's complaint board. We are officials and many are parents, but for the purpose of this board we do not control who plays. I can see where a coach can get out of hand at these levels, we often deal with coaches at this level and they can be a handful. But one of the bigger problems are parents because they usually tolerate bad behavior from their kids and do not want any authority figure to say much to them whether that is the officials or the coach. That level should be about learning, but that does not mean they have to play to learn. I stand by my original statement that I think it is your job as parents to teach your kids to play the game and if they are not playing, they need to either improve and work harder. This is going to really be the focus at the high school level where unless you are a very small school not everyone will even make the team, nor should make the team. Just because the kids play in a game is not going to make them better.

Peace

Well, at least we now know he treats all his players the same and he is not unfairly treating the less talented players.
;)

So how many are on this team? Speaking from experience, from the perspective of the coach, a team with participation requirements with more than 8 players is a challenge. If this team has more than 10, it would be a nightmare.

Helicopter Parents ...
 

These are called "helicopter parents", they hover around their kids. The main reason why I gave up coaching a few years ago.

My son teaches college Sociology. He has had parents of his college students call him to complain, comment, ask questions, ask for deadline extensions, etc. And this is college.

As a ninth grader, I was the twelfth man on a twelve man ninth grade team. I only got to play when we had a comfortable lead, late in the game. As a teenager, I played recreation league baseball, an average, or slightly below average fielder, couldn't hit a fastball to save my life. I seldom played. If I ever complained to my father about playing time, and if I had asked him to approach the coach for me, he would have either told me to, "Shut up", or he would have told me to go and talk to the coach myself.

Yes sometimes kids are abused in these situations, and the parents need to be an advocate for their kids, but it has gotten way out of hand.

If I had a lick of coaching ability, I still wouldn't want to do it today. I've heard too many horror stories from coaches-turned-officials to want to deal with that crap. I'll say it again: Parents get mad at officials for 5-10 seconds, and it usually goes away. People hold grudges against coaches! No wonder the turnover rate is so heavy.

Kids have to learn that life can be competitive. The better you deal with that, the better you can deal with life.

Kind of like how our government handles money. SOrry. I'll leave now.:D

The CYO in Cleveland had struggled for years with this issue and came up with an annoying yet effective way to legislate and control this. The quarters are split in half, and substitutions are only allowed at the break. This situation is in place until all players have played two segments. After that, then its free substitutions. It has stopped the participation issues within the CYO organization.

At one time, (prior to the above mentioned change) I was on the darkside and a CYO coach. At our first practice, I had the players vote. Did they want to try and win the championship (had to be unanimous), or did they want to all get to play. I had teams that voted each way. But whichever way they voted (parents weren't around) a letter went home explaining playing time issues.

This is the way it is done in our kids league. (ages 9-12) Each player must play at least 3 segments, and each player must sit out at least one. With up to 8 players on a team this is manageable, any more than that, it is a problem.