a fall and a trip
 

A1 driving toward basket. B1 guarding but falls and A1 trips over B1 and ball goes oob. whats ur call?

There's no way to make a call based on that description. That's a play you would have to see to make. Could be a foul on B1 or it could be a perfectly legal by B1. It is not automatically either one.

BBR thats just the way it happened. it was JH-8B and sometimes these kids just fall then others trip and it looks real ugly. everyone expects a foul call for a crash. it was difficult to call a block as he was guarding on the move... so i just called oob.

No, that's not "just the way it happened."

Did B1 have legal guarding position?
Did B1 fall down while backing up?
Did B1 move toward A1 as he fell?
Did B1 fall into A1's path as he tried to go by him?

If B1 had not fallen down and the same collision had occurred, would there have been a foul? Who would it have been on?

So no, you did not give us enough information to know whether a foul occurred or not.

yes, yes, no, no

if B1 hadn't fallen down, you could not have the same collision. now if B1 stopped would A1 have run into him? maybe.

B's position is legal (FED rules), so the rest of the play is what it is..

Confucius Say ...
 

There's a difference between being tripped, and tripping.

B may have had LGP, but once he's fallen onto the floor, he no longer has LGP, right? If he moves even a wee bit with A1 falling after the contact with
B1, we'd have a foul on B1, right?

Makes no difference whether he has LGP or not. If he got to his spot on the floor first without illegally contacting an opponent, then he is entitled to that position under NFHS rules. His movement is no more limited than if he was still on his feet.

seems like this has come up several times so far this year (here and elsewhere).....

by NFHS rule, the defender has a right to that space on the floor. When the contact is such that it causes the ball handler to fall and lose the ball, then I've got a foul on the defender.

Whats the rule citation or case?

4-23-1 (3rd sentence) ...Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

So the defender dives to the floor in front of a dribbler. As long as he gets there before the dribbler, you're not calling a foul when the dribbler trips over the defender?

I've had it happen both ways this year. B1 falls, and lays there while a dribbling A1 trips. No call. B1 trips, and rolls over A1's leg, causing him to fall.

Nope.

Really? Isn't it LGP that grants a defender the privilege of moving at the time of contact?

Camron, please don't take my comments out of context and twist them for your own means. I wrote three statements, not one.

A player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. Whether he's lying on the floor or standing with his back to the dribbler, the same restrictions exist on his movement and his position, based on this rule.

That has nothing to do with LGP, nor did my last two statements have anything to do with LGP.

If you want to tell us about LGP, then by all means, knock yourself out.

The answer is the same for both of you.

4-23-1

Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

Wow??? Did someone get out of bed on the wrong side today or what! I took NOTHING out of context...I quoted the entire post.

The fact is that the movement that the movement of a player on the floor is more limited than a player on their feet since a player laying on the floor can't have LGP.

Your IM to me was as juvenile as I've seen in a long time.

No, just tired of your petty nitpicking of everything I write when others don't have a problem with it.

You highlighted the last statement in RED. You only commented on the last statement. So yes, you damn well did take that statement out of context.

The last statement did not apply to LGP. It applied to the second statement I wrote. I can't believe you don't understand that.

I couldn't care less what you think of my PM to you. I now have two posters on my Ignore list.

Making A List, Checkng It Twice ...
 

BktBallRef: When are you going to take me off your list?

Petty nitpicking. State things accurately and you'll get no responses. State things ambiguously or incompletely and you'll get replies.

I've ALWAYS respected your contributions here and have considered you a valuable source of information. I am not attempting to make you look like the idiot you claimed to be in the PM. If you feel threatened by having your words clarified/corrected, I can't help that. And if you're ignoring me for that, you've really got thin skin.

Agreed. There are a lot of those here.

Peace

Why would you? (Assuming defender isn't moving when contacted)

Yeah, ya did. The red sentence is part of his explanation as to why LGP is NOT relevant in this case. You took the sentence and reversed the context.

.

I can't believe this. The defender does not have a LGP. You can't defend someone while lying on your back. You often see someone get a rebound and trip on a player who fell to the floor next to them. Are you calling a travel or a foul? I'm calling the foul.

If you go back to the original post. The defender tripped (I assume on his own feet) and then the dribbler tripped on the defender. I'm assuming all of this happened quickly and that the dribbler did not have time to avoid the player on the floor. Call the foul, nobody is going to complain.

I don't make calls based who will or won't complain. :)

Jay, I think you work mostly NCAA rules, correct?

In NCAA, you'd be correct. It's specifically addressed.

But not so in NFHS.

If you call that at high school, you're simply wrong. I know you won't (or don't) believe me, so I suggest you ask your schedulers or supervisors. I promise you are incorrect.

I've seen you post college responses here before, so if you're referring to college ball, you are correct. The question was not stated to be college ball though - and I generally assume high school here unless otherwise noted.

That is not a sure thing. Saturday, the referee for our BV game made several of the guys take off their undershirts because they had long sleeves. The other umpire and I told him he was mistaken. We ended up making a little wager. The other umpire is acquainted with the assistant executive director of our state, so he gave him a call on the way home. He backed the ruling made by the referee.:eek:

Ugh! Fair enough! :)

So, did the R and Asst Exec split the money? :p

When I read it, that is not how it came across. Maybe he meant it to say that but that is not they way it seemed. I suppose it was ambiguous and could have been read either way. But if I read it that way, I'm sure that someone else did too.

There's A Difference Between Being Tripped, And Tripping ...
 

I'm probalby not (NFHS).

this happens so often and imho i err on no-call and take the heat from fans, coaches and sometimes evaluator. if there's no contact by defender on way down, though it looks like it from 10 feet, it not a foul. but must admit im tempted to "blow with the wind" and please, otherwise i'll hear about it. there's very little respect for judgement but i did have a coach compliment me for standing my ground and tell me he always tells his players "if we lose we lost because we missed a FT, a turnover...some where we made mistakes."

great discussion...gives me more confidence for next call.

My experience is with NCAA rules in the past and FIBA now. I live in Canada. I learned something. I never thought that NFHS would somehow be different in this context.