Advice on how to handle mouthy players
 

Did a freshman game last night with a bunch of whiners. Mostly just "oh my GOD!" and "he's hacking me!!" type comments. Nothing that would, in my opinion, warrent a T on its own, although I did hear one "that's bullcrap!" I thought about Ting that one up, but stopped myself. I'm a fairly new ref so I would like to hear what an appropriate way to nip this stuff in the bud. Because once they started whining they didn't stop.

The one team even started making little jab comments during free throws.

Thanks.

1. Ask the captain &/or coach to help you out as you have heard enough.
2. Official warning
3. Whack
4. Toss

It's best to nip it in the bud right away, otherwise it will continue all game. Maybe tell the coach you've heard some things out there that are close to unsportsmanlike, and you'd like his team to clean it up. The coach will appreciate you talking to him first, before just T'ing one of his players.

"That's bullcrap"--Automatic T.

Early in my career a veteran official told me "I'll take 'it' (jabbing comments) from a coach, but I won't take it from a player". I've taken that somewhat to heart, but each situation is unique and I handle them as such.

Whacked an 8th grade girl last weekend (no prior warning given) because she felt like she had to tell me 'what really happened' on a play she was involved in. Her mom came up to me after the game asking what she did because she wanted to know how she needed to discipline her child (refreshing to hear, huh?). I told her what happened and we both agreed that 'tone' has a lot to do with it. I also told her that in most cases, if a player "asks" a question, I will answer, but being told something probably won't get the same result.

It's amazing, the comments you mentioned in the OP, I would have never dreamed of saying back when I played. Boy how things have changed. Partly though, I think kids think they can say these type of comments because there is typically no repercussions, jmo.

Bullcrap.......whack.

In a freshman game....probably a good long stare the first OMG - they will usually get the hint that you are not pleased. Second instance...whack. Varsity game I'd ask coach, talk to captain etc. Very little tolerance in a game at that level.

T. No questions. If he wants to argue a call, there are 402 better ways to do it than that.

This you address the first time it happens. Maybe the first time you use disconcertion of the free thrower as an excuse and reshoot the throw, but you step in and make it known this action will not continue to be acceptable. Warning made, then you can assess penalties if it continues.

Best of luck!

Had this just 3 weeks ago. After it happened the first time, I went to the coach and told him that "14 was commenting after the play". I continued, "If there are any questions, they can come from you or a captain, but we will not entertain general comments".

Problem solved.

It did happen later in the game, but the player realized what they were doing, and then changed their comment to a question. I was ok with that. She was complaining about being hacked. We were in a dead ball time because we had called a foul for the player being hacked. :cool: I guess she didn't realize that.



T when they say "bull****". My other advice is to nip it in the bud. If it's repetitive, you have to deal with it, and the sooner the better. Technical fouls often come from (a) profane, (b) personal, or (c) persistent. If a team/player is persistently complaining/commenting, then deal with it early to avoid a technical foul.

My tolerance on what I will allow from a player before T'ing them up is perhaps a little on the low side but I think context for "bullcrap" would be important to me. How loud was it? Was it that word exactly? If it's not very loud the first time, I'm going to let it go with a word of warning to the player, captain or coach.

You're going to give them what I call "the look."

Either a "knock it off" or a "what?" "I didn't say anything" "Make sure you keep it that way."

Complete difference betweent "THAT's BC" and "YOU'RE BC"

This is an easy one. Nip it in the bud.

Barney Fife - Nip It - YouTube

Freshmen? Stop it early. It escalated because you didn't stop it. I'm guessing the coach was a bit chippy as well.

It really depends on your personality. If you do not mind saying what you need to say or you are one of those guys that is afraid you are going to offend will dictate how you handle this. Usually I am very direct with kids and do not mince words. I do not treat them as equals (which they are not) and I do not treat them like they are stupid either. Most of the time kids know exactly what they are doing and saying and if you call them on their behavior they will usually fall in line. I have several lines that I vary by a word or two that work for me, but then again they fit my personality. I would suggest you deal with players in a way that fits your personality. I also do not like to go to coaches to handle players either.

Peace

I'm a quick draw
 

I'm a fairly new official too, but for the younger ages if I have to think should I have called a T? Then it's a sure fire I called a T. For varsity, i tend to be more lenient and give the team a warning. I am also going to try this year to get the captain's more involved as Tref advised.

Since the season is early, you may want to see how giving a Tech the next time this occurs changes the outcome of your experience. Then make a determination of what works for you.

Misty Water Colored Memories ...
 

Thanks Mark Padgett.

Thanks for the input guys, much appreciated. Rutledge, I'm a pretty direct person and would have no problem telling a kid to watch his mouth. Being a new ref I just wasn't sure of the most appropriate way to do this. I didn't want to be out of line, and the more vet official working the game with me didn't do anything. After the game he acted all tough and said he would have T'd them if he heard it. He must be deaf because it was non-stop. I agree some strong eye contact would probably do some good, but I need a line. I'm thinking just a sweet and simple "that's enough 32" would suffice?

Now that's damn funny!
 

:d

I have even said to players, "When you have the amount of zero's behind your name on a check, then you can talk to me that way." You would be surprised how they get the message and shut up. Or better yet, their teammates get the message and handle it. Because there always seems to be one kid that wants to act like he is grown talking to me or my partners. And I also use the FT line as a way to say things to multiple players and get the message across as well. Again not something that happen every game, but techniques that work for me and prevent further problems.

Peace

+1

Efficient dead ball preventative officiating.

I told a coach, 'I want fewer comments from your players. They may think I need the help, but I don't want it.' A little humor handled it and that was the end. The kids were testing the waters and I drew the line in the sand. Message received and understood. Doesn't always work and you might have to handle it in other ways. Give it 10 or 15 years, you'll figure it out!:eek:

A Couple More Years, And I'll Be The Best Basketball Official On The Planet ...
 

The grayer my hair gets, the easier it is to manage a game. It's true. Why else has it gotten so much easier? It's the hair.

Can't be. Mine is not grey.....its gone.

Grey...Gone, basically the same thing (at least in terms of game mgmt).:D

that's exactly what you should do....draw your line in the sand - then blow the whistle when they cross it!

remember - you promote what you permit. if you don't do anything about it, then you are promoting that type of behavior as being acceptable.

Side Out ???
 

Hey. Off topic. Take it over to the beach volleyball Forum.

not sure i can post over there since i'm not wearing sandles, swimsuit, or sun glasses....btw DON'T ask what I'm wearing - i may have to start calling you Bernie Fine and not Billy Mac...:rolleyes:

Depending on the level of whine/comments, on a dead ball I'll do the 'come here' with finger and tell him/her I've had enough. It puts player on notice and coach of course will ask "what?" as I'm near bench. Usually, player may get yanked or reprimanded by coach and they appreciate no T was called, yet they know one is coming if it continues....everybody is different, works very well for me.

When it comes to players...
 

...at whatever level (I work HS, V and sub-V), I have zero tolerance for their commentary. I will warn a player as firmly as possible, and if it happens again, they're whacked.

My warning comes in the pregame :)

What exactly is an official warning where players are concerned?:confused:

I was wondering this also.

You're kidding I assume?

Why would he be kidding? The purpose of this wonderful game is to score more points than the other team. IMO, too much other BS has entered in - especially on the high school level - and we should nip it in the bud.

Brain fart, brain fart..............was thinking captains meeting.

You are correct sir!

The warning is that if he does this again, he'll be on the bench and we'll be shooting two *more* free throws.

I also don't get the warning in the pre game bit -- I remind them of good sportsmanship, but 90% of what's said in the captain's meeting is ignored anyway.

I'll talk to players and won't necessarily serve some tea if a player has a moment of bad sportsmanship, but my threshold for player behavior is well below my threshold for coach behavior.

Only 90% is ignored?

He's referring to his pregame, not captains meeting I believe. Or not??

Who Let The Dogs Out ???
 

Players, and assistant coaches, get a really, really, really short leash. Head coaches, and sometimes, captains, get a slightly longer leash. I just ignore fans.

Was working the end of a blowout BV game last night -- we're inside of 30 seconds. Kid from the losing team tries to go through a kid twice his size who has legal guarding position -- he bounces off of the defender and ends up on his back. Ball goes in the hole. Nothing to call, really.

As I head down the floor, the kid is screaming at me. It continues up to half-court (and my "had enough" meter was probably at an 8 of 10) when he swore at me. Whack. 20 seconds left in my fourth HS game and my first technical foul of the season.

The captain came up to me as I was administering the free throws and started with, "There's only 20 seconds left....." and I told him that no player was going to swear at me. After the final horn the kid intercepted us as we were going into the locker room (the locker room is a door on the end line) and apologized to both of us. Probably told to do so.

The visiting team committed 16 fouls in the first half -- 8 on the home team. Both teams were in the double bonus the second half. It was a long night.

Handed out my first technical of the year yesterday during a JV tournament, and it involved a mouthy player. I was Lead in transition and the ball goes out in the backcourt on my sideline. The V player (On defense) had knocked it OOB, but I didn't have a great look so I got help from my partner and we gave it to the H team. One of the V players walks toward me and says "Come on!" pretty demonstratively, to which I tell him to cut it out in no uncertain terms. He holds up two fingers and tells me "That's two". Whack. His coach yanked him and sat him for a while. He wasn't smart enough to shut his trap when I gave him the chance.

On Friday, I was telling someone at pick-up ball that I don't need to assess T's for unsportsmanlike purposes very often.

Of course, the very next day, first game of the season assigned by my board, boys' varsity, #15 white gets exasperated and drops F-bombs. Whack.

No biggie. The coach asked me who did it, I identified, and he sat him.

After the game, it occured to me that I yellow card in my first high school soccer game this fall (also boys' varsity), but I had none the rest of the year (with the exception of the U-12 girls' assistant coach I had to toss). You just never know.

Short leash
 

Probably two minutes into a tournament game today, and I called a kid for turning to me after a very obvious foul call and throwing his hands up and saying, "WHAT?" I am NOT going to be upstaged, especially not on the first call of the game, and an obvious arm-grab at that. Tolerate that, and it's going to be a very long game. Set the tone then and there, and it was a nice afternoon. Coach pulled him and chewed his but. I wouldn't have called that 10 years ago, but I also used to let people walk on me then too.

Speaking of being shown up...
 

Saturday I had a kid do the eye roll, and drop the ball at my feet. As the free throws are being shot, the coach asks me and I tell him what happened.

"But he didn't say anything".
"That might be good for you Coach, but it doesn't work for me".

And the game went on.

No, why put up with any of it? :confused:

You discuss it in pregame or do you mention warnings in captains meeting?

Captain's meeting. We tell them about sportsmanship and there is to be no baiting, taunting, or trash talk to opponents or anyone. Coaches are to coach, they play, we ref and not to confuse what our responsibilties are during the game. Why warn again during the game? :confused:

I disagree. I never talk at pregame about what a foul is going to be or what unsporting is going to be. As soon as you do that, and something comes up that you try to address without a whistle, the coach that listened to your pregame will be up your butt about "you said that would be called at pregame, why wasn't it?". I just say, "Sportsmanship is the priority, you're the captains and the coaches, do a good job of representing your school."

There are too many variables that come up in this game to tell them exactly what an unsportiing act is at pregame.

My pregame with the captains is quick: "If you see your teammates losing their heads, take care of it for me."

During the game, I'll offer a reminder to a player getting close to the line if he gives me a chance, but I have no intention of creating the impression that they deserve a warning of some sort.

Required question in our coaches/captains meeting: "Can I expect good sporting behavior from everyone here today?"

My own closing tag: "Question anything you like, as long as you're civil about it. Let's have fun." Seldom do I have an issue.

I am going to disagree a little. This is not about just talking about a rule, this is about sportsmanship which is required in my area and many areas if you read this board enough. Usually officials come up with a statement that included what is not allowed and if it includes things that promote sportsmanship. Your statement is fine, but general and all it takes is someone to suggest that you were not specific and they will complain later. I have no problem if you tell them you will not tolerate taunting or trash talking. That is not like telling them you will call hand-checking or illegal screens. And to suggest there are too many variables, that is correct, but that is not like saying things that are specific. You are not saying you will not tolerate chest bumping and then the first chest bump so not penalize. Those things are general in nature and are always going to be subject to how far we allow based on the official.

Peace

After following this, I have not heard the obvious solution. If plyaer A1 is calling for a foul for this or that, call a foul on his team for the same offense and when A2 complains, just tell him 'that the way A1 wants it called. Talk to him.'

Or, just call fouls on the complainer and sit his rear end on the bench until he learns how to deal with officials and adversity.

Because I'm not going to let the players change the way I'm officiating. Targeting a player isn't the answer, just tell him to stop. If he doesn't, call the T. Obvious, simple, and effective.

I happen to agree with him. Usually a player that is complaining is not learning from what you are telling them. I will just keep calling fouls and not give them any benefit of the doubt. They will eventually be out of the game by either too many fouls or their coach will realize they are not listening. I do not make up the first foul, I call what I see and usually try not to call a really silly foul.

Peace

Ok
 

Who says I am changing my officiating? I'm not, I'm just making suree I see all I need to see with certain players....:D :eek:

A spade is still a spade.

I don't see what poker has to do with the discussion.

While we're on the subject of captain's meetings....

We're in the second week of the season, and there is one thing that I can't stand my partners saying during their captains meeting: "Listen to us and we'll try to talk you out of fouls". For one, a foul is a foul and if you call them for illegal contact they will adjust or be on the bench. Secondly, if a coach hears that and then you call what he perceives to be a ticky tack foul early in the game, he has ammunition. He can say "But you said you were going to talk them out of fouls".

That phrase just bugs me and I never say it during my captain's meeting. I've also had a few partners give rules clinics during the meeting too...that's always fun.

Mine includes telling them that they're all captains and all in charge of their teams (I don't get "speaking captains" like every other person in my group), so keep them in line so we don't have to, and remind them to show good sportsmanship. It lasts 20 seconds tops.

When did I mention what a foul is going to be? I consider anything a kid has to say about what should or should not have been called "trash" talk. I'm not looking to T up kids and rarely have done so, but the original question asked how to deal with mouthy players. I just prefer to deal with it quickly and consider my captain's meeting their warning.

Short And Sweet ...
 

Agree. The less said, the better. I keep my topics limited to the three that the NFHS requires me to cover, and one that my local board requires me to cover (Players properly equipped, Players wearing uniforms properly, Practice good sportsmanship, Adhere to the restrictions, as well as the privileges, of the coaching box). Four topics. End of discussion.

Naw, wrong phrase. Try "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

Quick Q BTW, why should Compliner A screw up the game for everyone else by his continued complaining? Sometimes a simple foul call or two puts things in perspective for him, where coaches and captains can't in my experience.

TWo things here from my perspective. First, I had an oldtimer tell me when I was taking the course to become a referree, "When you get to the high school level, you might want to give coaches some lee-way. That's OK. But don't give the little *******s an inch." A bit of a crumudgeon, but a bisic philosophy I have followed ever since.

I too, address it at our captain's meeting. If I am the R this is my entire speech:

"Gentlemen (or ladies). You have been chosen as captains for your leadership ability. You know who your hotheads are. If you handle them, we won't have to. I only have four rules for you. Respect the game. Respect your opponent, respect the officials and have fun. Good Luck."

If they don't know the black line is out of bounds or we are going to blow the whistle if the ball touches a support wire, they are too stupid to remember it during the game anyway. So why waste the time.

Also, as an aside (HiJack warning), I never ask for speaking captains. If I have three co-captains there I want them all working on the sportsmanship issues and with me. No need to diminish the role of two of them. I'm sure there are many who will disagree with this and I understand. My mentor was the one who gave me that advice and it made sense. Sometimes, common sense is the default way to go.

I will usually throw this in there too. Most of the time I just remind them to keep their jerseys tucked in. I don't usually say anything about the coaching box, but if I've never had a team before, I'll remind the coaches to communicate with us on timeouts.

Our local custom is to have the captains meeting at 12 and the coaches at 2:30

I like this! Might just give it a try...

That wouldn't work here. Start times are at 7:30.

You are turning into Padgett

While I understand what you are saying (excuse me, I get paid to look at things this way), how are any of those measurable? If you were to say something about sportsmanship and they didn't follow it, you can call a technical foul. If they showed disrespect for you, their opponents or the game, how are you going to enforce it? Yes, it would probably fall into the sportsmanship category which means you could simply say something about...sportsmanship and be done with it. Chances are they aren't listening anyway.

As far as some of the other posts go, I don't think we should tolerate anything from kids. Our instructional chair - a fine gentleman - tells us that we can find 10 players that want to play on any given night. The others will either be eliminated systematically (5 fouls) or immediately (1 technical/flagrant foul).

Via definitions.

I stated earlier that I would add "imperative sentences" to the list of T-able offenses. I believe that's pretty clear cut. We should never tolerate orders from anyone on the floor.

Others have used profanity and other defined terms. Granted, there are variances among some of us as to what meets these terms, but for the most part, our general knowledge (particularly in your bit of Rome) knows what they mean.

There's also good ol' "common sense," a term that sometimes makes me cringe, because some people use it when they really mean, "how come everyone doesn't think like I do?" The reality is, though, common sense plays a big role in what we do. Some of the best officials I know embrace this concept.

Nearly everything in this game is defined. Was control met here? Did he travel there? We use our definitions as our measuring sticks, and it also plays a role in what we find T-able, too.

OK, let me try again by putting this in the form of a statement instead of a question. While I do believe that there is a time and a place for what I would consider motivational conversation, the statement I was asking about means nothing to players when they are about to play a game. If someone violates one of those "respects" the official has no rule reference or penalty to use. Furthermore, my common sense tells me that most actions that can be related to these "respects" would really be unsporting acts. So - I'm going to use my common sense again - why not just say something about sportsmanship and be done? Maybe not as memorable or quotable, but simpler.

I can see it now..."Technical foul on blue forty two for not respecting his opponent." Now does that make (common) sense?:D

Having said all of that, a respect speech may fit the person who posted it's personality. But for someone else to say they are going to use it because is sounds good may not work.

While your common sense is helpful for your deduction, there is a specific rules reference (10-3-6(a)) and penalty for disrespectful actions toward oficials, and (c) addresses baiting and taunting.

Beat me to it.

I expected better from you Tomegun. You don't think we should have a captain's meeting?

Where did he say that?

I don't think he said that, but I don't think much (anything?) would change if we didn't.

Me either. I consider it one of the least important moments I'm on the floor and I only do it because it's required of me. If it was made optional tomorrow, I'd never do one.

As far as tomegun's post -- none of this is measurable. Whether an act crosses the line is *always* subjective. I mean, even what I say is ridiculous, "I need one spokesperson from each team. (Pause to get that completely unnecessary information, although I'll ask the captain if they're ready before the jump.) You are the leaders on the floor. We expect good sportsmanship. Help us with your teammates or we'll have to get involved. Any questions?"

BTW, that's my entire captain's meeting these days. If it's over 20 seconds, my partners are going to let me know about it.

Thanks everyone for clearing this up - no, I didn't say we shouldn't have a captain's meeting. We are supposed to have one and we do it. However, Rich's post above speaks to what I feel. Some grand statement to the players means very little to nothing. Who cares about being quotable when the only people really listening are your partners?

The worst part of any game is everything we do before tip off. I try to stand there not looking bored and as un-militant as I can be, but I'm just suffering through all of that. The most excitement is if someone dunks and that isn't even really exciting; I just calmly ask for the player's number if they are wearing warm ups.

I'll say it. We shouldn't have a captain's meeting.

Interesting, but I disagree. There are things we do in society that are ceremonial, but give a message, even if subtle. The NFHS has always had sportsmanship as one of its highest priorities. The Captains meeting, while ceremonial, certainly sends this message. Boring? No more than coaches meeting, but to me, much more important in the message it sends. Thats why my statement is so short. You are right; talk too long, or be in a noisy gym and the players won't be paying attention. Again, thats why I don't get into the stupid stuff....color of OB line, Wire causing dead ball, speaking captains when neither us nor the players will remember in the 3d quarter when we need the captain's help. But one statement on sportsmanship? Most important topic to be addressed in the meeting.

It is mostly ceremonial and I feel it sets a tone. It is the opportunity for the leaders to hear your voice and give the coaches an idea of what they will deal with. Nothing more and nothing less.

Peace