video on jump stop, daughter gets called for travel
 

My first post: I have taught my daughter to shoot an over head jump shot off of the jump stop.
This has been called a travel by some officials at times. If official doesn't know rule and opposing coach or fan yells "thats a travel" they will call it.

I made a video to show move, feel free to critique it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Nvnsy3Ivw

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/29Nvnsy3Ivw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The video is private. You'll have to make it public for us to see it.

Your bigger issue is that you have officials listening to fans and coaches.

How can you be sure they are calling it because they don't know the rule and someone yells as opposed to your daughter actually travelling? Perhaps it is called a travel "at times" because "at times" your daughter does not execute the jump stop properly?

that could be true, no doubt she has traveled at times.. however tell me if you see any traveling on this video . hopefully you can pull it up

You need to edit the settings on this individual clip. It's still private and thus not viewable by us.

Not with the video being private.

Peace

Has anyone else noticed that the video is private......can't see it.

No one else has noticed. :D

This is not a problem on our end: you must change a setting in YouTube for anyone else to view the video.

Travel. :D

Good Jump Stop Videos
 

I like these Videos. If you check out min. 3:25 you will see a "Quahog dribble" that is a step into a jump stop.
Travel or Not Extra Credit: Advanced Moves - YouTube

Hey, the video is private. I can't access it.

I bet Tebow could view it, though.

Oh my... not you too!

As far as I can tell, we have a delay of game situation.

5-1 as a starter...hard to argue with that.

If the defense gave up the same amount of yards and point, they would have had that record before the last 6 games too. Hard to argue that either.

Peace

Simply stating he's 5-1, as if he's the sole reason, doesn't look at how and why those games are being won. I'd give the overwhelming credit to the defense.

I just have one question.

Why is it that people can be critical of Brady, Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees (all have won Super Bowls) but for some reason we cannot talk about a guy that has never won a Super Bowl or has been to any playoff game? Oh 5-1, he must be the GOAT!!!! :rolleyes:

Peace

I don't need to see it to know it is a travel.

Coaches and fans accuse me of being blind so why does it matter. They also think I'm indecisive, I'm not sure why.

OK on second thought it is a legal jump stop.

Well maybe not.

(I'll be happy to look at the video for you as soon as you open it up for us.)

Extra Butter ...
 

Me too. I've already got the popcorn ready.

try it now it should work, I made it public on You Tube, I need "more tech savy"

What do you want us to look at?

Also your example at 1:36 if flawed in which one is the pivot foot. That play she catches the ball with both feet on the floor. Either foot could be the pivot foot. Then again I am not sitting and watching the entire video just to know what you want us to comment on.

Peace

Great video...and talented daughter!
 

Looks like she is learning correctly. That long step move is the most incorrectly called travel ever....the ladies are about the only ones that utilize it!

I watched it. Not a single move in there that should be called a travel, including the game footage at the end (although I've seen that called a travel more times than I'd like to). I actually did watch the entire video.

She's quite good with the ball and it's obvious she's worked very hard at it.

I guess what I want reviewed : if you saw these moves would you call them a travel? What percentage of referees would call them a travel? Is this a travel ?

Thanks, the last move from game footage was called a travel. In most games last year, the jump stops were not called traveling. It did happen enough though to make me question if she were doing something wrong, hence the motivation to make a video.

If you had a specific play to look at then I would feel more compelled to comment. I will not be watching the entire video just to judge every play in a 10 minute video. And what other officials would do I have no idea. The couple of minutes I saw there was nothing wrong with the moves and I would not call any of them a travel. Traveling is sometimes one of the most inconsistent calls in the game and certainly that is the case with jump stops. I guess I was expecting a jump stop ruling and that was not the case.

Peace

1. No

2. Hm, maybe 2% at the level I work.

3. No.

You'll find that traveling is the most inconsistent calls made/not made in basketball. In high school, in my experience, it leans towards too many officials calling legal plays travels because it "looked weird."

The last play in the clip was a legal play, and IMO, wasn't even that close.

McDaniels started 6-0. We've had our hearts shattered before.

I'm A Travelin' Man ...
 

Don't see anything that I would call a travel here.

I've tried to slow down the play that starts around 5:13. It doesn't appear to be a valid jump stop at the end of the play.

I agree that feet did not hit simultaneously on this move at 5:13 on video, however I don't believe this was a travel because the ball was caught(gathered) with both feet off the floor. thanks for reviewing this and your input

No official is going to split hairs that close...at least I wouldn't.

If I need slow motion to figure out if the landing wasn't simultaneous, then it was legal.

+1

One thing that bothers me about watching college basketball on TV is how the commentators will take every opportunity to rip the officials to shreds...after watching the replay in slow motion.

Did anyone see the Duke-Kansas game the other day? Jay Bilas made several comments about how the Duke guard traveled twice before he passed it to his teammate, who hit a three to seal the game. Of course, he waited until after he saw the replay about five times to make those comments.

i wasn't using slow motion to see if it wasn't simultaneous...that part was obvious.

i was using it to see where she gathered the ball. at full speed it appeared the right foot was on the ground when she gathered it, and i still feel that way after slowing it down.

At 5:16 you can still see the player hasn't gathered the ball. And even if she had gathered the ball with the right foot on the floor, nothing about that makes the play illegal. It would have just meant the player couldn't pivot (and for the record, she gathered the ball in mid-air).

I've seen court cases that were shorter...
 

...but the game action at the end was not a travel.

I love players with good footwork.
 

This kid looks great. Saw nothing I would ever call. Keep up the good work.

Her last name is Deibler.

So you're challenging her parentage? :D

Who's Deibler? thanks for reviewing video and giving response

Any other opinions on the legality of these jumpstops? Would it be out of line to talk to officials before game to ask them to observe the moves in warmups so it doesn't surprise them during game?

Yes, it would be out of line. It would also be counter-productive. You might as well try to teach them the rule....

Better to have the coach talk to the officials during the game -- "Bob, what did she do?" (official mumbles some answer) "I have it as jumping off one foot and landing simultaneously on both feet -- please watch for that."

Exactly, After talking to the referees( after the game in which they called this move a travel) about this move some seemed confused "catching the ball with one foot on floor and jumping to 2 feet landing simultaneously". So it makes me question how well versed they are on this and they usually say "well maybe you are right" with a deer in headlight look. So my view is to prep them before hand.

The move that gets called the most is the 'step back move' starting at 4:19 on video. thanks

As I stated earlier in most games it is not called but when we get a referree that calls it is very frustrating. In one game the step back was called 3 times.

If it's really a concern I'd suggest you have your coach address the issue with the appropriate assignor. And he would need to frame it as "seeking clarification on a rule" type of inquiry.

But in the end, remember that at your daughter's age she not liking to get the most highly trained officials.

Can't see why 'step back move' would be called, just a legal jump stop that happens to be backward rather than usual forward move.

What age/level is your daughter playing? If she is in vid, looks like 7th,8th grade? With exceptions you may have newer officials doing those games. I realize it must be frustrating if moves are legal.

I always listened to a coach or even parent(halftime, or after game if they were respectful to discuss a situation at length) in a lower level game.

Yes it would be out of line to try prepping the officials. If they don't know the rule, they aren't going to take your word. If they do, they don't need your help. No good can come from it. Teach your daughter to adjust. If they call it once, stop using it.

Ditto. Your daughter appears to be committed to being the best player She can be. Teaching Her to adapt Her game each night to what the referee crew is or is not allowing will help in being flexible and adaptable in the things She can control.

When I coached we had an acroname that the team used to remind each other to quickly adapt to changing situations. SAID
S-pecific
A-daptation to
I-mposed
D-emands

How the referee is calling the game is just one of the Demands Imposed on that day's game. Adapt and overcome. :)

You ought to send this(video) to all the coaches you can.

Send it to coaches or referees?

Good footwork for her age.

I didn't see a travel.

I normally watch the two foot landing very closely, and hit the travel if not simultaneous.

I see a lot of illegal jump stops in inner city leagues.

Nice job with this video. It's good for officials in that it shows very well how to look for the pivot foot.
Traveling remains the most missed call in basketball.

Sammy, A Little Traveling Music Please ...
 

And a call that is often made when the player really doesn't travel.

Indeed. It works both ways.

In regards to the video, 1:27 -1:49:
Take a look at 4-44-3b ... After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot: if the player jumps, neither foot may return to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
This is what I understand to be a "drop-step", and in the video, both feet are off the floor (jump), and then the left foot returns to the floor before the ball is released on a try, thus a travel call. This move, to be legal, must have the non-pivot foot in contact with the floor, before the pivot foot is lifted. Admittedly, it is sometimes missed, due to the speed of the move.

There's a difference between a long stride and a jump.

Help me out. A jump is to have both feet off the floor at the same time, which fits the statement in 4-44-3b. ... when it refers to "... neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or a try for goal."

Are you saying the move at 1:27-1:49 is a travel? First off, in real time, I would have said she landed simultaneously on both feet after gathering the ball in the air. Slowed down, the player's right foot lands first, then the left foot, thus establishing the right foot as the pivot foot. She then steps with her left foot, picks up the pivot foot, and releases the ball before the pivot foot returns to the floor. Thus a legal move.

What's the confusion here?

I don't believe a jump is defined that broadly. Every layup ever shot involves steps that would fit your definition of a jump.

The context is established with the initial statement of4-44-3 . . . After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot: - which the player does at the 1:27 mark. Then, having moved the left foot rearward, she jumps (both feet leaving the floor) and alights on the left foot, before releasing the ball.
I agree that in real time, this move is rarely called a travel. A completely clean - legal - drop-step would involve the non-pivot foot being in contact with the floor, before the pivot foot is lifted. Indeed, if that is the case, until the pivot foot touches again, it cannot be a travel.
Yes, on a normal drive to the basket, at a run, both feet are off the floor three times, without the action incurring a travel violation.
This entire sdcenario is not the main subject of the OP, in as much as a jump-stop is quite a different move.

In real time, and in slow motion, I don't have a travel.

If this is true then it seems like every layup in which the person is running would be a travel because I have heard it is impossible to run and have both feet touch at the same time. Try running and have both feet on floor at same time. Look at layup shown on video at around 1:05 , pivot foot is lifted before left heel touches.

My point is if the rules defined a jump the way you suggest, then a layup as normally performed is a travel. There's a difference between a step and a jump. It's a judgment call, but the rule doesn't require the drop step be performed as you say, it prohibits a player from hopping while keeping the pivot foot off the floor. Imagine an aborted jump shot where the player keeps it and lands on the non-pivot foot. Without this rule, that would be legal.

The difference is whether the ballhandler is moving, such as on a lay-up, or if she (4-44-3) "comes to a stop and establishes a pivot foot" and then, ..."jumps (leaves the floor with both feet, whether jumping off one or both feet). If she does jump, then (4-44-3-b.)"neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."
As mentioned earlier, in real time, this move is many times not called as a travel violation, even though a clean, (legal) drop-step move involves the non-pivot foot being in touch with the floor before the pivot foot is lifted, or in other words, the legal move does not involve a jump to the non-pivot foot, before the ball is released.

You're reading way too much into the rule by adding your own definition of "jump." The reason it's not called a travel is it's not a jump.

+1

You're reading so much into the rule that you're confusing yourself into thinking this is illegal.

Sorry, to seem argumentive. The wording of 4-44-3b. seems simple enough. How else would one understand the word "jump", if not "After coming to a stop", and then leaving the floor, as in both feet off the floor, at the same time?

Obviously, in order to jump, both feet must leave the floor, but running steps do the same thing. To officiate it properly, you have to know the difference.

As for to what the rule refers, here:

Snaqs, I understand your point. From the outset, I agreed that the move, on the video, that I was addressing, is rarely called a travel, in real time. And, in fact, in slow motion, it's not clear-cut to be a travel. It's the only move on the video that is even near to something that I might think the officials in the games that this talented youngster is playing, may be called a travel. Every other move in the video, the true jump-stops, the jump-stops to the rear, the pivots, are not even suspect.
I just spent two hours going over some of the videos on the net that are presented as training aids for basketball moves. It's amazing how many guys have put stuff on the net, made up their own names for moves, and parts of moves, and at times don't even describe their video presentations congruously with the actions shown.

thanks

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