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Old Tue Nov 15, 2011, 11:12pm
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NCAA M Flagrant 1

Watching the Kentucky/Kansas game...

A1 has a breakaway with B1 about a step behind him. A1 goes up, and is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting. Many would say it was an intentional foul, and I agree. One of the officials made the signal for intentional foul (I believe it was the C) on the play.

Of course, with the rule change, this is now a Flagrant 1 foul. A2 shot the free throws. I'm not familiar with NCAA rules...but does that not make sense to anyone else?
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Old Tue Nov 15, 2011, 11:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stiffler3492 View Post
Watching the Kentucky/Kansas game...

A1 has a breakaway with B1 about a step behind him. A1 goes up, and is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting.

A2 shot the free throws. I'm not familiar with NCAA rules...but does that not make sense to anyone else?
Only if A1 were injured on the play and unable to attempt the free throws.
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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 12:14am
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The classification of Flagrant 1 is the same as Intentional Foul was the previous year or in NF rules. They made Flagrant 2 as what was only called a Flagrant foul. All the same but the wording changed.

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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 01:41am
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They got it wrong as the fouled player remained in the game throughout. He should have shot the FTs.
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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 10:11am
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
They got it wrong as the fouled player remained in the game throughout. He should have shot the FTs.
Where in the rulebook does it say the injured player has to come out of the game if he can't attempt the free throws because he was injured on a F1 or F2 foul?
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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 10:34am
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Originally Posted by JS 20 View Post
Where in the rulebook does it say the injured player has to come out of the game if he can't attempt the free throws because he was injured on a F1 or F2 foul?
didn't see the game, but are you saying A1 was too injured to shoot the ft's, but remained in the game? I'm confused...
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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 11:59am
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Originally Posted by vbzebra View Post
didn't see the game, but are you saying A1 was too injured to shoot the ft's, but remained in the game? I'm confused...
A1 was fouled on a fast break by B1. B1 is assessed a F1. A1 wound up in the row of cheerleaders/photographers and came out limping. He was unable to shoot FT's as a result of the F1 foul. A1 stayed in the game and A2 (another of the 5 on the floor at the time the F1 occurred) shot and made both FT's. No substitution ever took place.
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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 01:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS 20 View Post
Where in the rulebook does it say the injured player has to come out of the game if he can't attempt the free throws because he was injured on a F1 or F2 foul?
If he was able to remain in the game, he was able to shoot the FTs.
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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 01:25pm
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Originally Posted by camron rust View Post
if he was able to remain in the game, he was able to shoot the fts.
+1!!
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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 01:26pm
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Rule 8 Sec 2 Art 3 in short states if a player was injured from "either intentional or flagrant" foul, the offended team's coach can select any player from his team.

The key word is "unable." Can a player have an injury that prevents him from shooting but still allows him to play (sprained finger)?

How I read it, as long as the injured player isn't seen by a coach or trainer, the player can stay in the game and have a teammate (picked by his coach) shoot the FTs since he was fouled flagrantly or intentionally.

Last edited by dahoopref; Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 01:33pm.
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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 01:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If he was able to remain in the game, he was able to shoot the FTs.
I'm not arguing with your logic. But, the book says:

(Men) When an injured player is unable to attempt his free throw try(s),
the coach from the opposing team shall select one of the four remaining
players on the playing court to attempt the free throw try(s). When the
foul is flagrant and the injured player is unable to attempt the free throw
try(s), the injured player’s coach shall select any player or team member
to attempt the free throw try(s).


It doesn't mention anything about the injured player having to be removed from the game.
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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 01:50pm
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Correct.

And 8-2.1 provides even more guidance:
Section. 2. Who Attempts
Art. 1. Personal fouls -- The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul shall be attempted by the offended player, unless one of the conditions of Article 2 and 3 of this section are met.
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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 01:55pm
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I don't have the NCAA book in front of me, but determining if a player is unable to attempt the FTs is the same regardless of the type of foul, correct?

If so, can you see a scenario where a common foul by B1 against A1 injures A1 to the extent he cannot attempt the FT, but not to where he has to be removed? And, if it's a sprained or broken finger, what about the next time he's fouled?

I have a hard time finding a situation that would allow a player to remain in the game but make him unable to attempt FTs.
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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 02:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS 20 View Post
I'm not arguing with your logic. But, the book says:

(Men) When an injured player is unable to attempt his free throw try(s),
the coach from the opposing team shall select one of the four remaining
players on the playing court
to attempt the free throw try(s). When the
foul is flagrant and the injured player is unable to attempt the free throw
try(s), the injured player’s coach shall select any player or team member
to attempt the free throw try(s).


It doesn't mention anything about the injured player having to be removed from the game.
For something to remain, something has to have left. "Remaining" players is different than "other" players.
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Old Wed Nov 16, 2011, 02:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 View Post
I don't have the NCAA book in front of me, but determining if a player is unable to attempt the FTs is the same regardless of the type of foul, correct?

If so, can you see a scenario where a common foul by B1 against A1 injures A1 to the extent he cannot attempt the FT, but not to where he has to be removed? And, if it's a sprained or broken finger, what about the next time he's fouled?

I have a hard time finding a situation that would allow a player to remain in the game but make him unable to attempt FTs.
There is a distinction for flagrant fouls. If it is a personal foul (with free throws) and the injured player cannot shoot, then the opposing coach gets to pick the shooter from one of the four remaining players. For a flagrant foul, the coach of the team that is fouled can select any player or team member.

A.R. 199 addresses this as well.

A.R. 199.
(Men) A1 is bleeding from a blow to the head and is unable to attempt his free throw(s). Is Rule 3-4-3.f concerning an injured player applicable?
RULING: The intent of Rule 3-4-3.f is to eliminate the situation whereby a poor free-throw shooter faked an injury so that he could be replaced by a higher percentage shooter. Obviously, a bleeding player is not faking an injury. Consequently, Rule 3-4-3.f is not applicable. The bleeding player shall be instructed by the official to leave the game for attention by medical personnel. His coach may exercise the option of substituting for the bleeding player or calling a timeout.
(Rule 3-4-3.f and 8-2-2.a)


(Side note for those who have noted the NFHS did not update its casebook to reflect the new rule on throw-ins: The NCAA editors did not do too well either getting rid of "intentional foul" even though the rule change this year has it called "Flagrant 1." Rule 8.2-3 is at least the third place I have found the phrase "intentional foul" still in the rule book, even though it no longer exists.)

Last edited by BayStateRef; Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 02:32pm.
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