Its All About Me?
 

Have you expereinced in your associations, members who feel "its all about me"? Recently, I get the vibe that many of my fellow members are very self contained worried about how much $$ they can make, level of recognition, and high profile games. While putting the association second and really not caring to groom younger officials who they might view as a future threat.

Your thoughts and experiences?

Any group of human beings is going to be composed of the typical mix of d-bags, average schmoes, and people you want to emulate and learn from.

The key is figuring out who is who as quickly as possible so you can ignore those who deserve to be ignored, and listen to those who deserve to be listened to. With the caveat that even the d-bags might have something to teach you, so while you might have to deal with their d-baggedness, it is best to not alienate them if at all possible. Even a jerk might be good at their job.

Not everyone is willing to train or prepared/able to train younger officials. Actually there are many that want to do that I would not want to train officials at all. That does not mean that they have the attitude you suggest. It might mean they are in their comfort zone and do not want to get out of that. We all do this for very different reasons.

Peace

...
 

I have found that if I treat the veteran with the respect they deserve, most are very approachable and will let their guard down.

Even though they may have experience - I live by the motto - trust but verify when I am told something - from me asking or from an association trainer.:)

Here's to a healthy season all!

I have found that a lot of newer officials are not truly interested in any type of criticism, constructive or otherwise, so I mind my business until someone shows me some sort of interest in learning.

Exactly. Or they hear one thing and stop caring what someone else tells them.

This is a business and at the end of the day you have to make yourself available to get information. This is a fraternity that many younger officials do not completely understand as well. Many of us say something and we go and run to others with what we say. I can see some veterans being "guarded" to say much to a younger official. Not to be critical of "Rookie" but it is possible that he is misreading the behavior of veterans. Their behavior does not necessarily have to do with someone brand new taking their job. Actually a new person is not going to ever take my games in the first place.

Peace

bingo!

Right on. And any group is going to have those who talk big ("just give me a call") and don't follow through on their own offer. Going in a foxhole is fine -- vets or rookies (well, not so much them) alike -- but don't preach about the value of giving/getting help but then get lost when it comes time to actually give/get it. Applies to more of us than we'd like to admit, I'm sure. Goes both ways.

Funny, I've found the same to be true about a lot of veteran officials.

I never consider giving advice to veteran officials so I wouldn't know how receptive they are.

There will always be officials in every association of every level of experience that want and crave advice/criticism/feedback. And there will always be officials in every association of every level of experience that don't.

I would never even consider giving any advice or instruction to a veteran official unless they were at a camp or setting where they are asking for advice. Like if they attend a camp where I am a clinician or running the game. Otherwise I respect their experience and let them work their game. If they want my advice they will have to ask, much like the rookies or lesser experienced officials.

Peace

what you've described is called "ego"....don't get me wrong, ego is a good thing (too much of it - or too much of anything, really, - is not good). the ego's job is to protect us and not let us get hurt.

the ego believes that putting the association first and training younger officials will hurt an official. that's why the ego want more $, more games, better games, and more recognition.....it's only normal.

as in life, those people who have a healthy ego or are able to keep their ego under control, are usually the most successfull people.

It's not even about giving advice or instruction when it's not asked for. It's about some veteran officials feeling like they are above criticism.

For example, last year I was working a JV game with the varsity refs watching. We had a player who slapped the backboard while (in our judgment) attempting to block a shot. The ball was in the cylinder and fell out. No call. After the game, both officials were all over us about why we didn't call basket interference. When I told them it's because that's not the rule, they both backtracked and said we should have at least called the technical. "What if the slap of the backboard wasn't intentional?" I asked. Doesn't matter, they said. When I, again, informed them that's not what the rule says, they both gave me a lecture about reffing in "the real world."

I've had several experiences like that with veteran officials who, because they are veterans, don't want to hear anything in terms of rules correction from someone who has fewer years of experience than they do.

So, like I said, I don't think it's a one-way street in terms of being accepting of criticism.

Maybe not, but this thread is from a newer official pondering why it seems veteran officials don't do more to help mentor younger officials.

What does that have to do with not taking criticism? That sounds like a disagreement of what the rule is or is not. I do not listen to anyone even when they are more veteran than me. I always consider the source.

I teach a basketball class with very inexperienced officials in many cases. I get them trying to tell me what they interpret the rules are based on their very limited experience. What does that have to do criticism?

Well often it is the younger and inexperienced officials that do not know what they are talking about or doing. All you have to do is read this board to figure that out sometimes. This is why most veterans say nothing if asked or if they know the person personally when we encounter officials we see in regular games. I almost only comment to younger officials when I know them or when I have been a clinician at their camp. And even then I have them ask when they want my evaluation. What you are describing is not what we are talking about. Because I will not accept much from someone I do not respect or feel has some knowledge that I can learn from. That is often not a 2 year officials.

Peace

It has everything to do with not taking criticism. I pointed out that their rules knowledge was lacking in this area (criticism), even showing them in the book and they blew me off repeatedly. It wasn't a "oh, I disagree, I think the rule is X." It was "You're the new guy, shut up because you don't know what you're talking about."

A good official who can take criticism would have said, "Hey, you know you're right. I didn't realize that, thanks for pointing it out," just as a good rookie would do when corrected by a veteran.

You seem to be on some personal stuff. That was not the point of previous comments.

Funny, I do not think I have ever seen that conversation between officials. OK, if that is what you think.

Peace

Um, actually it was the point of the whole thread. The OP asked if anyone has ever experienced veteran officials who think "it's all about me." I have, and I related such an experience.


You've never been involved or overheard a conversation where an official said "I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out?"

That is not what you were responding to. You said that there was an equal number of veterans that were afraid to take criticism and it goes both ways.


You did not just say it was a conversation where someone said they were right, you said a rookie told the veteran he was wrong and the veteran just said what you wanted them to. Usually those disagreements are with veterans who know each other and have some interaction with each other. That is the point.

Peace

Actually I didn't say that. I just said there are a lot of veterans who can't take criticism. I said nothing about it being equal in numbers.

Either way, I still fail to see how that is off-topic.

And, even if you do feel it's off-topic, welcome to the world of internet message boards.



That's a lot of pronouns. Regardless, I still don't get your point.

This is what was said back in post #5 in this thread.

You quoted him and then said this.

What you talked about what not about constructive criticism. You talked about a disagreement someone might have about a rule, mechanic or interpretation.

My question to you is what learning is a veteran going to need to hear from a rookie? So a guy that is working a JV game and has a full schedule of JV games, you honestly think a veteran or person that has much more experience and a varsity or college schedule is going to listen to those opinions with a straight face?

Really that I am getting at. Then you told a story about a disagreement over a rule. I do not think these are the same thing. And it certainly not the same thing as a veteran not wanting to help a rookie as suggested in the OP.

Peace

I love how you boil everything down to your own personal interpretation of what a conversation is or isn't about.

It is really not a big deal either way. I was commenting on your response to a very specific comment you made. If you feel that there are veterans that do not want criticism and that is something that keeps you up and night, be my guest. Now what does that do for your career?

If you want to know the truth, I think people spend too much time worrying about what people do with them involved then worrying about themselves. I do not care who accepts or dislikes criticism because I am too worried about doing my job. If someone wants my help I will give it to them if they ask and if they take it in the spirit in which it was intended. People in other aspects of life do not want to help those they do not know or have direct involvement with, so why would we think that takes place in officiating? If you ask me there is too much whining about what someone else is not doing for you. While there should be more concern is what am I going to do to get better. And if one person does not want to help, I move to the people that will. There are over 6000 officials in my state, I am lucky if I even trust the opinion of only 4 of them. At least to the point where I am going to make big changes based on the opinions they might give.

Peace

You're funny. You think because I post something on an internet message board, it keeps me up at night.

If that really were the case, I would think you would have just said that at the beginning of the thread, rather than engaging in a tit-for-tat with me.

I do not know what keeps you up at night and not the point.

I asked for clarification of your original statement. You went on a rant about how some guy argued with you about a rule which I am still trying to figure out what that has to do with what you responded to. Not the same thing in my opinion and really not as big of a deal as you are making it to be.

Peace

I'm with you here. Unfortunately, JRut likes to hear himself talk (Or type) and will engage anyone in a conversation simply to draw it out for as long as possible, so by the end both sides have forgotten what they're arguing about. He's a legend in his own mind, just ask him. (Remember, he will only trust maybe four officials out of 6,000 for advice)

Yes, there are a lot of veteran officials who think it is all about them. I had a situation last year where I (As a fourth-year official) was working with a veteran (15+ years) and he blew about three rules interps in a row in the same game. He even refused to budge when I told him he was wrong and one of the coaches called him out on it. His opinion was the only thing that mattered though (Wouldn't even get together with me to discuss it).

Spoken like a true rookie. If you knew any better you would know that you should only pay attention to one or two mentors and just nod your head with the rest.

Tell me everything I needed to know. Thanks for making that clear to me. ;)

Peace

*nodding my head*

I'll admit it. This made me laugh out loud.

Agreed. Worked a scrimmage last Saturday with several less experienced officials. Observed them work a 15 min. running clock quarter. I saw:

The L call the T's line.
The L going to retrieve a blocked shot while the defender was taunting the shooter.
The C close on the same play but didn't have enough sense to see what was going on with the defender.
The T stand inside the thrower and administer the throw-in.
The L stand under the basket to the point that the C and T didn't know who was suppose to be the new L in transistion.

The icing on the cake was there was an excuse for everything that I tried to point out. :(

In my world there is big difference between teaching and mentoring a new/young official on how to officiate vs. getting into a debate with a veteran official who is misapplying a rule.

One has nothing to do with the other. The thread was about veterans who are too "...fill in the blank..." to bring along new officials not a thread about hard-headed officials who won't admit when they are wrong.

For the guys who think some veterans can't be told anything by the new guy, that is no more true than the new know it all who can't be told anything.
It goes both ways!

I used to feel the same way as the OP. But all vets arent like that, you will find someone that takes interest in you once you begin to help yourself. Attending camps, showing up at camps even though you aren't attending, staying for varsity games, asking to sit in on pre/postgames, volunteering to turn 2 person into 3s just for your experience. Those are some of the ways good vets will take notice & be willing to help you.

Another thing you may want check when giving vets advice or rules clarification is, how you say it... sometimes its not what you say.

JMO

Fair enough. Then, back on topic, yes, I have encountered my fair share of veteran officials who see a rookie and automatically assume they are not worth spending time talking to, mentoring, helping, whatever term you want to use, and therefore don't want to "waste" their time trying to do so. They'll encounter someone new and say things like "spoken like a true rookie," or something to that effect, displaying a general disdain for officials with fewer games under their belt. Or they will have a poor experience with a rookie or group of rookies, then assume all new officials are like that.

Whether that has to do with money, insecurity or whatever, I think that largely depends on the individual official. Everyone has their own motivations for acting the way they do.

That being said, I have encountered the exact opposite, officials who will go out of their way to give you an unbiased assessment of your skills and help you navigate the land mine of egos within the association. I found one such official, and it's made all the difference in my young career.

So, in the end, I think none of this has anything to do with basketball, and everything to do with the fact that some people are just dicks.

Yep. And in my world officials debate stuff all the time with fellow officials. Sometimes we have to get clarification from a rules interpreter or state administrator to get a final answer. But to have a debate where people initially do not back down is common. And many times it requires a rulebook or casebook to be pulled out.

And one of the biggest things younger officials do, is they try to put the blame on others instead of looking in the mirror. In other words instead of worrying about their mechanics, they worry about why someone that has more credibility is doing something.

Peace

I didn't say mentors. My point was that you are so arrogant you think only 4 guys know enough to ever give you advice. I'm pretty sure there are more than 4 out of 6,000 that are qualified to give you advice. Whether you would want to listen to them or not is a different story.



How is that? At what point is someone not a rookie anymore? This is my fifth year and I work a full varsity schedule and have worked postseason games already. Am I still a rookie? Is anyone with less experience than you a rookie?

We know you're god's gift to officiating, you've made that perfectly clear a number of times on here. Unfortunately you give a bad name to the veteran officials who are approachable and try to help whenever asked. Fortunately they do outnumber the ones like you, but one wouldn't know that from reading your diatribes on this board.

JRut regularly works state clinics as an observer so I don't know how you can come to the conclussion that isn't approachable nor helpful with younger officials.

You can be God's gift to officiating and a mentor. The 2 are now mutually exclusive. ;)

And for the record, there are older officials who will help you as much as you want and will do everything they can to help you succeed, and there are also older officials who will do absolutely nothing because they see you as a threat. It goes both ways.

I wasn't really trying to say that he isn't helpful if asked...although it does come off that way at times.

From reading his posts, he insinuated that most veterans don't want to be helpful because younger officials won't listen, which isn't always true. Like I said above, a lot of the ones who don't want to help younger guys are like that because they're afraid they'll be a threat in the near future.

As far as arguments over rules go, there are 2nd year guys and 15th year guys who don't know the rules. It is just more frustrating when a 15th year guy refuses to even discuss the possibility that he may be wrong (When he is definitely wrong) because he's too proud. The 2nd year guy most of the time is just ignorant because of a lack of experience.

You have only been doing this for about 4 years right? I have been doing this for going into my 16th year and having lived in two totally different places in my state. I have had mentors that I listen to the most. If I listened to everyone that gave me advice over the years, I would not be where I am today as an official and in some board positions that I currently hold. I would not have worked the levels, post season or tournaments as many would claim I could not do that or that they would not share that information. You probably do not even realize the very thing you are disagreeing with you seem to make a claim of veterans. ;)

I will work one of the biggest assignments of my life in a couple of weeks with two people that if they did not give me a shot or help me, I would not be where I am today not only as an official in this sport, but another sport because they encouraged me. And I get to work with two of them in this assignment, but you do not understand why I said out of all those officials I would only listen to 4 people? LOL!!!! Keep living and you will one day see what I am talking about. None of us accomplish anything in this without a very select few helping us.

Rookie has little to do with years of experience, but a mindset. You could be have 10 years of officiating experience and still be a rookie in your mentality. And if you think a disagreement with another official over a rule is the same as not helping a younger official, then that is all I need to say about that.

Not God's gift, but certainly more knowledgeable then you appear to be at this of our careers in officiating. When you deal with as much people that I did just this week alone then talk to me. Tonight I would have been involved in training younger and veterans with over 100 officials, first on Monday were over 60 attended my basketball class that I am the founder of and the other is an organization where I am President.

Basketball Training Class | Inter-Athletic Council of OfficialsJust Monday

Peace

And your evidence for this character aspersion is what?

My experience is that some vets don't bother because some new guys don't care. Neither applies to all, but I've rarely seen a vet back off because he saw the newbie as a threat. That's just ridiculous.

Let me say that veterans like that are not the majority.

The ones I'm speaking of don't "back off", they are generally off-putting and short to begin with. Don't want to pregame much, won't communicate on the court, etc. Most of them are good officials, they just aren't interested in giving the time of day to someone who isn't one of their buddies. I'm not saying that most veterans are like that, quite the opposite actually, but they do exist.

You're confusing me. For one, I'm not which category you put or don't put most officials into.

Second, your judgment of their motives, in the previous post to which I responded, indicates a judgment that can't possibly be warranted.

I don't put most officials into the category of "I'm too good to work with a younger official". Those guys are the minority, but I'm just making the point that they do exist.

I guess there is no way to know for sure what their motives are, but after working with several it seems to become apparent.

There are a lot of good veteran officials that are great to work with in my area, and I do agree with JRut in that you should only listen to a few. It becomes obvious who the ones are that A) Want to genuinely help you, and B) Know what the hell they're talking about.