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-   -   IPAD on the Bench (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/82484-ipad-bench.html)

chseagle Tue Oct 18, 2011 03:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 794768)
If they are screwing the shot clock up in college ball (mostly lower level college I am talking bout), you really think some snot nosed kid is going to get this right at the HS level? And there are a lot of directives or literature to make sure those rules are followed and they are often not followed by many that run that clock. I think HS would be a nightmare.

Peace
As per Appendix 4 in the Official's Manual, page 85:

4.0.2 Selection of Scorer and Timer:
A. Adults: A high school student or one of last year's graduates will have the interest and enthusiasm but may lack poise, impartiality, and judgment.
B. Experience: Choose someone who has had some playing, coaching, or officiating experience.
C. Faculty: If faculty men or women are available for these jobs, they usually do the best work, although it is not a guarantee.
D. Reliable: Choose men or women who can and will be present at every home game. It may be an honor to act as scorer or timer, but it's not an honor that should be passed around with each game.
E. Good Judgment: Above all, choose someone with plenty of poise, good judgment, a sense of impartiality, and one who you are sure will be able to forget the score and concentrate instead on the job.

As the above states, "snot-nosed" kids do not belong at the table.

Concerning shot clock operation, those times I'm doing it, I feel like a bobble head, but that is because I am continually watching the ball. I only average about 2 requested resets a season due to missing something that I should not have. I realize I make mistakes, and I am willing to learn from those mistakes.

Shot clock is not that hard to do, just have to pay attention to the game closely and where the ball is (table wise).

JRutledge Tue Oct 18, 2011 04:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 794770)
As the above states, "snot-nosed" kids do not belong at the table.
Again you fail to listen to what people say here.

Not everyone uses that book or even knows it exists. The only people that consistently know it exists are officials that would get the book sent to them through their association or state organization. In my state, we do not even belong to the NF from an officiating point of view so what that book says means nothing to me or us in this state. We have Terms and Conditions that our state must follow and this has nothing to do with the NF and their standards. And things like when officials are to come onto the court and what is expected from game management. Also I am not talking about just varsity games, I am talking about those Saturday Morning games where the JV is playing or some Freshman B game is going on and often the people that run table are high school kids that often are paying more attention to their cell phone and texting than the game or what we are asking them to record. And that is the way it is as we do not tell them who can or who cannot work their table from a hiring point of view. And even if we get some adult, they are often not affiliated directly with the school, but are parents and they often are more worried about little Johnny or little Suzie is doing on the court than paying attention to us. Even with the best pre-games we often get the "Well I have been doing this for XX years and I know what I am doing." But the first situation comes up because they were not paying attention nor had no idea what things they were to keep track of. So please stop telling us what that stupid book says when I bet most states that even use that manual probably never distribute that to their schools for this kinds of duties and instructions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 794770)
Concerning shot clock operation, those times I'm doing it, I feel like a bobble head, but that is because I am continually watching the ball. I only average about 2 requested resets a season due to missing something that I should not have. I realize I make mistakes, and I am willing to learn from those mistakes.
And that is two more times than should be requested. Imagine some kid that wants to text his girlfriend or reading emails on their Smartphone than knowing when the clock starts properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 794770)
Shot clock is not that hard to do, just have to pay attention to the game closely and where the ball is (table wise).
It is hard enough that you admitted you had to reset the clock 2 a game and where I know every college game we have at least one clock issue and it involves the shot clock as well. And I learned long time ago how to pay attention to the game clock and how it relates to the shot clock and we still have problems. Sorry, I think HS needs to stay away from this, at least where I live. Too many schools and too many problems now, I do not want to add to that by using something that if incorrect could affect possessions to a team. Not even teams hold the ball and this is not much of an issue anyway.

Peace

Rich Tue Oct 18, 2011 04:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 794781)
Again you fail to listen to what people say here.

Not everyone uses that book or even knows it exists. The only people that consistently know it exists are officials that would get the book sent to them through their association or state organization. In my state, we do not even belong to the NF from an officiating point of view so what that book says means nothing to me or us in this state. We have Terms and Conditions that our state must follow and this has nothing to do with the NF and their standards. And things like when officials are to come onto the court and what is expected from game management. Also I am not talking about just varsity games, I am talking about those Saturday Morning games where the JV is playing or some Freshman B game is going on and often the people that run table are high school kids that often are paying more attention to their cell phone and texting than the game or what we are asking them to record. And that is the way it is as we do not tell them who can or who cannot work their table from a hiring point of view. And even if we get some adult, they are often not affiliated directly with the school, but are parents and they often are more worried about little Johnny or little Suzie is doing on the court than paying attention to us. Even with the best pre-games we often get the "Well I have been doing this for XX years and I know what I am doing." But the first situation comes up because they were not paying attention nor had no idea what things they were to keep track of. So please stop telling us what that stupid book says when I bet most states that even use that manual probably never distribute that to their schools for this kinds of duties and instructions.



And that is two more times than should be requested. Imagine some kid that wants to text his girlfriend or reading emails on their Smartphone than knowing when the clock starts properly.



It is hard enough that you admitted you had to reset the clock 2 a game and where I know every college game we have at least one clock issue and it involves the shot clock as well. And I learned long time ago how to pay attention to the game clock and how it relates to the shot clock and we still have problems. Sorry, I think HS needs to stay away from this, at least where I live. Too many schools and too many problems now, I do not want to add to that by using something that if incorrect could affect possessions to a team. Not even teams hold the ball and this is not much of an issue anyway.

Peace
To be fair, he said twice a season. To me, that's a pretty damned good job. Running a shot clock isn't easy.

JRutledge Tue Oct 18, 2011 04:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 794783)
To be fair, he said twice a season. To me, that's a pretty damned good job. Running a shot clock isn't easy.

Well I am averaging twice a game at the college level to get simple mistakes like resetting the clock on a simply out of bounds or resetting the clock when the ball did not even hit the rim. And this is with partners that are very experience and probably go to more camps than the average official. Like BNR said, I would be terrified with all the HS officials that cannot concentrate hard enough to get the current rules right that are easier to follow.

Peace

chseagle Tue Oct 18, 2011 05:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 794781)
Again you fail to listen to what people say here.

Not everyone uses that book or even knows it exists. The only people that consistently know it exists are officials that would get the book sent to them through their association or state organization. In my state, we do not even belong to the NF from an officiating point of view so what that book says means nothing to me or us in this state. We have Terms and Conditions that our state must follow and this has nothing to do with the NF and their standards. And things like when officials are to come onto the court and what is expected from game management. Also I am not talking about just varsity games, I am talking about those Saturday Morning games where the JV is playing or some Freshman B game is going on and often the people that run table are high school kids that often are paying more attention to their cell phone and texting than the game or what we are asking them to record. And that is the way it is as we do not tell them who can or who cannot work their table from a hiring point of view. And even if we get some adult, they are often not affiliated directly with the school, but are parents and they often are more worried about little Johnny or little Suzie is doing on the court than paying attention to us. Even with the best pre-games we often get the "Well I have been doing this for XX years and I know what I am doing." But the first situation comes up because they were not paying attention nor had no idea what things they were to keep track of. So please stop telling us what that stupid book says when I bet most states that even use that manual probably never distribute that to their schools for this kinds of duties and instructions.



And that is two more times than should be requested. Imagine some kid that wants to text his girlfriend or reading emails on their Smartphone than knowing when the clock starts properly.



It is hard enough that you admitted you had to reset the clock 2 a game and where I know every college game we have at least one clock issue and it involves the shot clock as well. And I learned long time ago how to pay attention to the game clock and how it relates to the shot clock and we still have problems. Sorry, I think HS needs to stay away from this, at least where I live. Too many schools and too many problems now, I do not want to add to that by using something that if incorrect could affect possessions to a team. Not even teams hold the ball and this is not much of an issue anyway.

Peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 794786)
Well I am averaging twice a game at the college level to get simple mistakes like resetting the clock on a simply out of bounds or resetting the clock when the ball did not even hit the rim. And this is with partners that are very experience and probably go to more camps than the average official. Like BNR said, I would be terrified with all the HS officials that cannot concentrate hard enough to get the current rules right that are easier to follow.

Peace
How often in your games do you have good rapport with the table personnel?

I maintain communication as timer to the shot clock to mention about ball being in play, ball off rim, change of team control, and other factors that do need to be considered for shot clock operations.

Those times when, as shot clock operator, I do err it is because of not having clear view of play or I saw something differently than what the floor officials saw however I immediately make the change requested.

It's a shame not everyone involved game management wise does not have a copy of the appendices of the Officials' Manual as those suggestions/recommendations have been helpful to me.

JRutledge Tue Oct 18, 2011 05:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 794788)
How often in your games do you have good rapport with the table personnel?
What the heck does this have to do with anything? I am not going on a date, I am working a game. And not being the Referee I have very little interaction with them at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 794788)
It's a shame not everyone involved game management wise does not have a copy of the appendices of the Officials' Manual as those suggestions/recommendations have been helpful to me.
Good for you, but as stated before not everyone uses them or gets them or even knows this book exists. None of this information means anything anyway if the people working have no clue what they are doing.

Peace

chseagle Tue Oct 18, 2011 05:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 794789)
What the heck does this have to do with anything? I am not going on a date, I am working a game. And not being the Referee I have very little interaction with them at all.



Good for you, but as stated before not everyone uses them or gets them or even knows this book exists. None of this information means anything anyway if the people working have no clue what they are doing.

Peace
Good rapport between table & floor officials: all are there to ensure the game goes smoothly as to game management. Clear communication is available.

If the information in the appendices were read and followed, there would be less chance of those working table being clueless.

I didn't even post anything under 4.0.3 Training the Table Officials which is what you're saying is irrelevant. It would become relevant if it was followed.

chseagle Tue Oct 18, 2011 05:53pm
Back on topic:

How often do you see bench personnel with a computer/tablet during the game?

BktBallRef Tue Oct 18, 2011 07:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 794619)
They could, but why would have have to?
As the technology continues to advance, devices are being created that do not meet the description that's addressed by the rule. That's why. Whether they address it with revised rules or case plays and interpretations, it's going to be necessary.

BktBallRef Tue Oct 18, 2011 07:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 794791)
Good rapport between table & floor officials: all are there to ensure the game goes smoothly as to game management. Clear communication is available.

If the information in the appendices were read and followed, there would be less chance of those working table being clueless.

I didn't even post anything under 4.0.3 Training the Table Officials which is what you're saying is irrelevant. It would become relevant if it was followed.
You're talking out of your a$$. There are thousands and thousands of high schools across this country, which means there's tens of thousands of table officials. We run into incompetent table officials more often than you can possibly imagine. You can have all the "good rapport" in the world and and print all the appendices you want. It's not going to prevent Mary Jo Trainee Honey from texting her boyfriend when she should be paying attention to the game.

Camron Rust Tue Oct 18, 2011 07:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 794797)
As the technology continues to advance, devices are being created that do not meet the description that's addressed by the rule. That's why. Whether they address it with revised rules or case plays and interpretations, it's going to be necessary.
Unless you're advocating a change to permit greater use of computers, every device out there is covered by the rule and every device on the horizon is also covered by the rule and is prohibited. A "computer" doesn't just mean a desktop or a laptop computer. Your smartphone is a computer too. A tablet is a computer. An iTouch is a computer. They're all just very small computers. They're all prohibited unless used for statistics only.

"transmission device" pretty much covers about anything that could be used to send or receive information form/to anywhere.

I suppose you could argue that we can't tell whether they are being used for stats or not but no rule change will change that.

Are you saying you think they should loosen the rule to allow computers of some types?

chseagle Tue Oct 18, 2011 08:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 794799)
You're talking out of your a$$. There are thousands and thousands of high schools across this country, which means there's tens of thousands of table officials. We run into incompetent table officials more often than you can possibly imagine. You can have all the "good rapport" in the world and and print all the appendices you want. It's not going to prevent Mary Jo Trainee Honey from texting her boyfriend when she should be paying attention to the game.
Nowhere did I state it would be a foolproof solution.

I've been able to cease cell phone activity at the table before, it's not that hard to do if it is enforced that those working table must have their full focus on the game.

BktBallRef Tue Oct 18, 2011 09:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 794800)
Unless you're advocating a change to permit greater use of computers, every device out there is covered by the rule and every device on the horizon is also covered by the rule and is prohibited. A "computer" doesn't just mean a desktop or a laptop computer. Your smartphone is a computer too. A tablet is a computer. An iTouch is a computer. They're all just very small computers. They're all prohibited unless used for statistics only.

"transmission device" pretty much covers about anything that could be used to send or receive information form/to anywhere.

I suppose you could argue that we can't tell whether they are being used for stats or not but no rule change will change that.

Are you saying you think they should loosen the rule to allow computers of some types?
I'm saying that has technology evolves, they will have to become more descriptive and address new innovations and products. They will have to make changes either by rule or by case play or interpretation. It's my opinion. If you disagree, that's fine. Time will determine if I am correct.

BktBallRef Tue Oct 18, 2011 09:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 794804)
Nowhere did I state it would be a foolproof solution.
Whether you said it or not, you always have an answer. You don't seem to understand that not every scoring table issue can be solved by your methods. None of us have all the answers.

Quote:
I've been able to cease cell phone activity at the table before, it's not that hard to do if it is enforced that those working table must have their full focus on the game.
That's great. I can stop it too, once I see it occur. I can even talk about it in the pre-game. But kids are kids and some are just going to do what they want to not matter what is said.

JRutledge Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 794791)
Good rapport between table & floor officials: all are there to ensure the game goes smoothly as to game management. Clear communication is available.

If the information in the appendices were read and followed, there would be less chance of those working table being clueless.

I didn't even post anything under 4.0.3 Training the Table Officials which is what you're saying is irrelevant. It would become relevant if it was followed.
What are you living in, Fantasy land? No one gives a darn about rapport with people that still do not know how to do their job.

I do not care what the damn book says if the people you claim should read it have no idea what that is. Just like many coaches do not know what a rulebook looks like, I think even less table people even know what an Official's Manual is, let alone what the NF is. Do you know how many cheat sheets or guidelines many of has seen over the years. I even know officials that give the table a little sheet to cover guidelines and they still screw up basic stuff. Again if table people would not screw up basic stuff like the darn possession arrow, then maybe I would have more faith in their ability to start and stop a clock appropriately outside of the game clock. You cannot be that ignit can you?

Peace


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