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-   -   Is it legal to push back the opponent while posting (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/81769-legal-push-back-opponent-while-posting.html)

MiamiWadeCounty Tue Oct 04, 2011 08:39pm

Is it legal to push back the opponent while posting
 
I ask this question because I see many offensive post players "backing in" or pushing back the opponent, and no foul is called. I thought this was illegal. Is their something I missing?

Scrapper1 Tue Oct 04, 2011 08:54pm

It's not legal to displace an opponent. If the opponent gives ground, well. . .

Adam Tue Oct 04, 2011 09:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 791635)
It's not legal to displace an opponent. If the opponent gives ground, well. . .

YEP, it's a fine line sometimes.

MiamiWadeCounty Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 791635)
If the opponent gives ground, well. . .

What do you mean by the opponent giving ground?

JRutledge Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty (Post 791640)
What do you mean by the opponent giving ground?

It basically means that the player is not contesting the player's movement. In other words they are allowing the player to go where they want. Now if they try to hold that position or fight the movement, that is a different story. That is one reason it is hard to decide who is doing what sometimes because both players are moving to keep their position. When one gets and advantage it should be a foul.

Peace

just another ref Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 791643)
It basically means that the player is not contesting the player's movement. In other words they are allowing the player to go where they want. Now if they try to hold that position or fight the movement, that is a different story. That is one reason it is hard to decide who is doing what sometimes because both players are moving to keep their position. When one gets and advantage it should be a foul.

Peace

+1

Also, contrary to popular belief, it is not necessary for the defender to fall down for the foul to be on the offensive player.

tref Wed Oct 05, 2011 09:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 791644)
+1

Also, contrary to popular belief, it is not necessary for the defender to fall down for the foul to be on the offensive player.

+1

It's important to get the first foul in the post as well. Many times the first foul is the defenders knee in the offensive players rear, which can lead to displacing "get even" tactics.

Raymond Wed Oct 05, 2011 09:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 791692)
+1

It's important to get the first foul in the post as well. Many times the first foul is the defenders knee in the offensive players rear, which can lead to displacing "get even" tactics.

Which is why it's important for the new Lead to get into position and ref his primary instead of staring back up court to watch the ball.

26 Year Gap Wed Oct 05, 2011 03:12pm

Misunderstanding
 
People posting here push back all the time.

Adam Wed Oct 05, 2011 05:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 791749)
People posting here push back all the time.

And occasionally, Bob has to call a foul.

grunewar Wed Oct 05, 2011 05:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 791760)
And occasionally, Bob has to call a foul.

Or, in my case a while back, I didn't listen to Bob and answered a spammer on the forum, and got a one day suspension....... :o

Tough, but fair official, that Bob (and his entire crew).

26 Year Gap Wed Oct 05, 2011 07:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 791769)
Or, in my case a while back, I didn't listen to Bob and answered a spammer on the forum, and got a one day suspension....... :o

Tough, but fair official, that Bob (and his entire crew).

Good thing you didn't ORDER anything.....

Amesman Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:46pm

Been itching to ask for views on this scenario for a while and this seems like a good opening ...

Two-whistle game, you're lead, administering B1's free throws. During said throws, what's your best advice for determining whether A2 (in the lowest position, opposite) is getting pushed by B2 to the point of a foul during the shot and boxout?

Let me clarify: A2 is not jumping, but rather digging in for the box-out. There's a total straight-lining there.

I knew the family of A2 in one particular game and asked later if he was really getting the pressure from behind and he said yes. I had thought as much, yet from the endline, I saw no displacement so figured I had nothing to call. I told him it would have helped if I saw him move or lurch at some point. Thoughts?

tref Thu Oct 06, 2011 01:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 791872)
I saw no displacement so figured I had nothing to call.

Minus any obvious displacemment, thats a tough call for the L.

JRutledge Thu Oct 06, 2011 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 791872)
I knew the family of A2 in one particular game and asked later if he was really getting the pressure from behind and he said yes. I had thought as much, yet from the endline, I saw no displacement so figured I had nothing to call. I told him it would have helped if I saw him move or lurch at some point. Thoughts?

Cannot call what you cannot see. And it is worse to call something purely on a guess.

Peace

bob jenkins Thu Oct 06, 2011 01:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 791872)
Two-whistle game, you're lead, administering B1's free throws. During said throws, what's your best advice for determining whether A2 (in the lowest position, opposite) is getting pushed by B2 to the point of a foul during the shot and boxout?

My best advice is to not look there because that's the T's / C's responsibility. L has rebounding on his/her side.

tref Thu Oct 06, 2011 01:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 791880)
My best advice is to not look there because that's the T's / C's responsibility. L has rebounding on his/her side.

Even if its the kid of a family friend? ;)

MiamiWadeCounty Thu Oct 06, 2011 02:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 791643)
It basically means that the player is not contesting the player's movement. In other words they are allowing the player to go where they want. Now if they try to hold that position or fight the movement, that is a different story. That is one reason it is hard to decide who is doing what sometimes because both players are moving to keep their position. When one gets and advantage it should be a foul.

Peace

So, if the opponent gives ground, you cannot displace him, correct?

JRutledge Thu Oct 06, 2011 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty (Post 791896)
So, if the opponent gives ground, you cannot displace him, correct?

How are you displacing anyone if that person is moving in the same direction you are?

Peace

MiamiWadeCounty Thu Oct 06, 2011 02:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 791897)
How are you displacing anyone if that person is moving in the same direction you are?

Peace

LOL So giving ground means something like to back away? I didn't know that was what it meant. Sorry to ask that question.

JRutledge Thu Oct 06, 2011 02:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty (Post 791900)
LOL So giving ground means something like to back away? I didn't know that was what it meant. Sorry to ask that question.

What is the definition of displacement?

Displace: "To move or shift from the usual place or position."

So in order to have a foul for displacement of some kind, you have to move a person with contact to another position or place. Giving ground basically means you are moving with the person and allowing them to go where they want to. I am not mad you asked the question, just trying to explain to you what this means.

Peace

Camron Rust Thu Oct 06, 2011 03:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 791872)

Let me clarify: A2 is not jumping, but rather digging in for the box-out. There's a total straight-lining there.

....asked later if he was really getting the pressure from behind and he said yes.

So, if A2 wasn't displaced, that means that A2 is applying just as much pressure in the opposite direction....Newton says so.

So, who is really doing the pushing? One player wants to move their opponent in, and the other wants to move their opponent out.....or they want to resist being displaced. Both are applying pressure in roughly equal amounts. Only when one displaces the other (or it becomes too rough) does the contact become a foul....and either one could be the guilty party.

Adam Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 791903)
So, if A2 wasn't displaced, that means that A2 is applying just as much pressure in the opposite direction....Newton says so.

So, who is really doing the pushing? One player wants to move their opponent in, and the other wants to move their opponent out.....or they want to resist being displaced. Both are applying pressure in roughly equal amounts. Only when one displaces the other (or it becomes too rough) does the contact become a foul....and either one could be the guilty party.

Not necessarily, inertia plays a factor, as does size difference.


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