Good call?

I'd like to know why he counted the bucket, that's all. If it's a charge on a dunk, doesn't that mean the ball is through the rim already? That was certainly not the case. However, regarding the actual block/charge, I never got a great look to see if the defender was there in time.

It looked to me like the ball was through and therefore, should have counted. Remember the NCAA men and NFHS rules are different on this as there is no airborne shooter in NCAA men. As for the foul, I think the defender was there in time and that it was the correct call. I'll also note that if Texas had been in the one and one they should have shot free throws, since it would not be a team control foul. I don't think they were at the time, so I believe they got this one right. Someone else can confirm this.

Packerism
 

Was this the play where Billy Packer made another one of his idiotic remarks, "I don't think the official took account of how far he (shooter) was from the basket when he took off.
Based on this logic if you jump towards the basket on a shot and run over a defender, it is always the offensive player who causes the contactno matter how long the defender was standing there.
What a moron.

I did think that the defender was under the basket in this case, and I believe that NCAA rules say this is not a PC???

Re: Packerism
 

Hmmmm, people in glass houses. . .

Just kidding!! Just poking a little fun. ;) But in NCAA rules, it is still considered a PC. In practice, it may be a different matter.

HuMMMMMM!!!
 

I thought it was a NO call. A1 had already jumped and B1 was under the basket. If any call was to be made it should of been a BLOCK. I guess its One of those had to be theres.

Who is that Ref? I noticed he is always close to the action. He really gets close to the players.

Re: Re: Packerism
 

Chuck shouldn't that be in NCAA men's rules?

Sigh. Yes, yes, men's NCAA. I always forget that the women play a different game. But in this case, since we're talking about a play in a men's game, I think I can be forgiven for the oversight. ;)

Think again, my friend ;)

Ok, Dev, I thought again and you know what? I was right the first time. According to NCAA rules it's a PC. However, according to the supplemental guidelines provided for women's official's, standing under the basket is not considered legal guarding position. :p

Chuck

Now you're being wishy-washy ;) Of course you are correct, tho.

On a drive along the baseline, like the play we are talking about, would be a PC foul in Women's.

This philosophy that Woodee is espousing is the cause of the problem. Since many officials, not just Woodee (I'm not picking on him personally), hold this view and are calling the game in this manner, coaches and fans are starting to expect this PC foul to not be called.
My feelings on this are:
This is not the NBA, there is not a semi-circle on the floor, so follow the rules and call this a PC foul. If there is such a strong dislike of this call being made, then they will eventually change the rule, but until they do we should follow it.
Remember the NBA is a show. They are trying to make money. Therefore, they want the game to be as exciting as possible for fans to watch. They want more scoring and more dunks. That is what sells tickets. If that means giving the offensive player an edge when he is attacking the basket by taking away legal guarding position from the defense in that area, they are going to do it. But in NCAA men and NFHS it is still legal to play defense there.

I pose this question,

If "a foul is a foul", why do we ever choose to pass on a call?

Different wave length, my man. The viewpoint of Woodee is based solely on the defensive player's location. It has nothing to do with advantage/disadvantage or discretion. He is simply saying that if there is contact under the basket it cannot be a PC foul. Look again at his statement, he even advocates a block being called.
Discretion within the rules and not following the rules are two very different things. Of course, I'll admit that JRut made some excellent counterpoints on this dichotomy in another thread.

A nit, but in fact NCAA men's rules do include the airborne shooter, just like NCAA women's & NFHS. The difference is that NCAA men's PC rule do not include the airborne shooter.

OK, my take on the play was usually this will be a no call. The defender was well under the basket (I know, I know) and the contact was made well after the ball was released. Hard to see how B1 was disadvantaged, just hold the whistle & play on.

BTW, I'm watching the UCONN-Texas womens game, there was just a beautiful PC foul called on Texas! Secondary defender came over to help on the drive to the basket, bang-bang contact, "that way!". Nice. I kinda think that fist thing the women's do is cool.

Yup, real good call. I thought the officiating was excellent in the UConn game. I only watched snippets of the first game.

I was glad to see the Huskies win, since they're pretty local to me, but I thought the game was not very fun to watch. Very sloppy, tons of turnovers. But the thing that really got my attention was that it seemed like on 90% of the possessions, somebody ended up on the floor. It was like they couldn't keep their feet under them. I don't think anybody jumped more than about 8 inches off the floor all night.

But the officials were excellent, and I mean that sincerely.

Chuck

Per Men's NCAA rules, a released shot followed by a PC foul will result in the shot being counted.

I think the big problem on this play (assuming we're talking the same one) was the TV angle - watching live, I nearly screamed at the TV that there was no foul. They finally showed a TV replay with the actual foul:

http://web.syr.edu./~dphines/images/lg_warrick_all.jpg

From the picture, the only part of the defender's body under the basket is the head. I would have to say, I think the PC call was in order, however, i thought the contact was before the release of the ball.

Great picture Mark, you must have had a nice seat.

Further, the NCAA/NBA interpretations regarding a position under the basket does not apply to baseline drives. The position under the basket in defending a baseline drive can indeed be a legal guarding position (even in the NBA) and can draw a charge. The offensive player my be attempting a reverse, in which case, the position under the basket is in the path to the basket where on a drive from the top of the key, the offensive player can not do a reverse from behind the backboard.

The NCAA men's interpretation is the same as NF. The defender is allowed to be anyplace on the floor. Not everybody calls it that way, but that's the interpretation.

In the NBA, the Restricted Area doesn't have anything to do with where the drive comes from. The rule is that a secondary defender cannot draw an offensive foul while standing in the RA. Notice that the primary defender CAN draw an offensive foul, even if inside the semi-circle. And even the secondary defender can draw the offensive foul if the play starts inside the lower defensive box (which is the lane, extended 2 feet on each side).

Just throwin' it out there.

Chuck

I feel Picked on!!
 

I see your point. The photo by Mark says a lot. If the rules state that legal guarding position is anywhere on the floor, your correct. However standing under the goal can get someone hurt!.


I feel better now!!

I wish I were the photo credit on that one!

Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

Hell - a lot of things can get a lot of people hurt. Whether the defender is in front of or behind an imaginary line has no bearing on injuries.

Hey Mark, great find on that picture! Yep, that's the play I'm talking about, yep it looked more like a no-call from the original TV angle, yep, I might have gone with the PC also if this was my view.

Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

I still don't understand how someone plays defense under the basket. The offensive player should have a place to come down, which is usually under the basket. I would never teach players to stand under the basket for defense. Suicide!

Re: Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

If you take away that landing spot, then you force the shooter to pull up for a more difficult jump shot. Sounds like really good defense to me.

Chuck

Re: Re: Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

Gotcha! I watch a lot of NBA!!

i still just want to know how that basket counted. i'd like to know how many times a scored dunk has been accompanied by a player control foul. still seems impossible to me.

Never. It's not a PC foul if the basket is scored. It's just a charging or pushing foul.

Anyone notice the call in the Title game?
Duany has good defensive position, although close to the basket, Heinrich plows him on the layup, BLOCK called on Duany! Hmmmm........ (17:08 second half)

[Edited by DrakeM on Apr 8th, 2003 at 03:23 AM]

Yes, I believe this was one example of the philosophy call and not the rules book call.
There were also a few that were ignored.

I will agree about the "philosophy" call, however this board has had discussion "ad nauseum" (to borrow Chuck's line) about the "right of the defender to any spot on the floor that he obtains first, EVEN if it is directly under the basket!" And how "the top NCAA guys call it the right way"
In light of the play that began this thread, this call is not consistent with the rule.

Let me be the first to say I have kicked many a play in my time. I have seen many plays on tape that I thought initially were good calls, that after tape review, I would change. I'm willing to admit imperfection. Let's afford the "big boys" the same right.


[Edited by DrakeM on Apr 8th, 2003 at 04:36 AM]

Duany did beat Heinrich to the spot, but not by much time. Coming from the officials view, Duany move over at the last second, he's under the basket, using game mgt. skills, BLOCK.

I haven't looked at the replay yet, but I wondered at the time if he got to the spot before the shooter left the floor. It's something I've noticed in the past, that what looked like a charge didn't fit the definition, because the defender was still sliding or leaning when the shooter's feet left the floor.

If this is the call I think it was, I used my replay tv on that one - it was a good call. Duany was just barely late, still sliding a bit to his left after Hinrich left the floor.

Ditto.

Replayed it a couple of times.

Imagine having to make that call in front of 50,000 people.

Bring it on!

Replay tv
 

Ain't it great. I am amazed at the number of times I am fooled, as are the announcers, and I see it better by checking the replay. I know that I have heard them criticize calls, recheck the play myself, and I come to a different conclusion just by looking at what happened. Some of it is a rules knowledge issue, but some of it is simply looking at the play again instead of running your mouth.

Re: Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

The "place to come down" is the whole point of putting a player there. Think of it this way - if you have a 'pass and crash,' you don't call a block simply because the defender "shouldn't have been in the way." Being in the way is, technically, the only legal defensive move.

A player control foul in men's college basketball only applies to a player actually in control of the ball.

Therefore, if the ball is released on a shot, and the foul is on the way down, the basket counts and we have a push or charge.

Question for the experts - since team control ends on the shot, isn't it possible that we could have a counted basket, foul on the offensive player, and then free throws for the player on defense (if in the bonus)?

Yup. I've even done it once. Hated to do it, but it was obviously a charge and the ball was so obviously out of his hand that I had to call it that way.

Chuck

Re: Re: Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

Mark,

So what is the proper call on a "pass and crash"?

This is my position, when the offensive player jumps for a try close to the goal and beats the defense, he/she should have a legal spot on the court to return to and that should be under the basket.

I played ball for a long time and can't imagine playing defense directly under the goal. I see a knee in the chest or grill and sitting for the rest of the game.

I disagree, Drake. I don't believe he established his position until after Heinrich left the floor. That's why it was a block. If you remember, he had position on the inital player, who passed it to Heinrich, who immediately went airborne. Good call IMHO.

good point, but a little late
 

Uh, Mark please go back are read the third post in this long thread where I wrote: "I'll also note that if Texas had been in the one and one they should have shot free throws, since it would not be a team control foul. I don't think they were at the time, so I believe they got this one right."

I'll say that my call seeing it in live speed on the TV was Player Control, but you guys (Hawks Coach and Canuckrefguy) have the video evidence, so I'll put my trust in you. Guess I missed this one.

I've looked at this play on replay as well. If you're talking about "sliding" or "still moving a little bit", you're splitting hairs. I've had many great referees tell me not to be "too pure" on this type of play. I liken this play to one that I struggle with, and that is the play where the defender sees the offensive player coming and starts to fall backwards to "absorb" the contact. If the offensive player STILL GOES THROUGH THE DEFENDERS SPACE, even if the defender is falling backwards at time of contact, call the offensive foul. I still have ahard time with this play.
So what if Duany is "slightly moving"? He is "firming up"!
He took the contact square. I think we as officials tend to see "movement" and think block. Just food for thought.
That having been said, I agree that with 50,000 people in the stands, at least there WAS a whistle.

[Edited by DrakeM on Apr 9th, 2003 at 06:15 AM]

Like Nevada, I only saw the replay that they showed at the time. But I also thought PC. The contact was square in the chest, and I didn't think the shooter had gotten off the floor yet. I'll trust the guys who watched it over and over on tape :) but I tend to side with Drake on that one.

Chuck

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

Yes, if the offensive player is in the ari before the defensive player takes the position.

If the defender is there first, the offensive player shouldn't go in the air.

At the time Hinrich left the floor, Duany was not in his path. Duany had extended his left foot toward that path just as Hinrich took off. He then he slid his right foot and moved his upper body into Hinrich's path. Bang-bang play, but I thought the refs nailed it.

I disagree. I watched the replay again this morning before I made my post just to see for sure. Duany has both feet planted, and Heinrich HAD NOT left the floor.

For awhile there i thought i needed glasses. I also thought it was a charge. But, I didn't have a problem with the block call. Of course, Please don't think I'm not for Kansas just because I live in Kansas. Of course the defender was under the basket, I think.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

Pass and crash - call it as a charge - not a PC foul, so you'll shoot free throws.

If the offensive player beats the defensive player down the court - you're absolutely right. Once the shooter is airborne, a defender coming in is charged with a block - mainly because this is a very dangerous situation.

If the defender has been set, though, then the dribbler/shooter needs to know that someone is in his path - that's when a PC foul needs to be called.

Re: good point, but a little late
 

I'm not questioning the call - just a hypothetical rules situation.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

Mark,

Please forgive my ignorance, but whats the differnece between a charge and PC? Also, what are the free-throws for?

I'm somewhat familiar with NC2A rules.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

Player Control foul, under both NCAA and NF rules is any personal foul (uncomplicated by double/multiple, etc. situation) committed by a player who is in control of the ball. (In women's NCAA and NF - it's also a foul by an airborne shooter after he has released the ball.) The dribbler could (technically) set an illegal screen, have a blocking foul, but it would be called player control.

A charge or push is exactly that - when a player pushes into or through another player. In 9 out of 10 cases - it's reported/signalled as a charge. If the dribbler does this, it's player control (i.e., any foul by the player in control of the ball).


As to the free throws - in men's NCAA rules, any foul by the airborne shooter after the release of the ball is no longer a player control foul. In addition, once the ball is released on a try, team control ends, so there is no longer team control. This foul is therefore not a team control foul, so B1 recieves the appropriate number of free throws, if B is in the bonus.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

One last ?

How does one signal a charge? I don't have my book with me and can't remember a charge signal. Must say I've seen Refs just point in the opposite direction but I don't think thats a proper signal for a charge. I'm not trying to be a PITA, I see opportunity for learning so I'm jumping on it.

Re: good point, but a little late
 

Neither am I, Mark. I'm just saying that I already answered your hypothetical earlier in the thread. ;)

Also you wrote something a bit confusing in the post next to this one.
I'm referring to: In NFHS free throws would be shot since there is no team control foul. However, in NCAA (both mens and womens) team control would still exist during the pass, so no free throws would be awarded.
Since you are talking with Woodee here, who seems pretty inexperienced, I thought I would clarify that point.
PS Woodee, the signal for a charge is the same as for a push. The fist punch the other way or the hand behind the head both signal player/team control fouls. The first is women's the second the men's mechanic.

From 20 rows up in the upper deck. It looked like a charge to me. and didn't look like he was under the basket. I thought it was good D. Of course, they didn't show the replay in the Superdome. Just protecting the officials. Probably a good idea.

Re: Re: good point, but a little late
 

In NFHS free throws would be shot since there is no team control foul. [/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe I missed something. "If" you are saying on a pass and crash, there is no team control, then i think you mean no player control.

Good catch, Bart. I think Nevada just got his NF and NCAA lingo mixed together. No player control, so shoot the FTs in HS; but there is team control, so no FTs in NCAA.

Chuck

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

In NF, the charge signal is the same as for a push.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

Until now, I thought a charge and player control were the same fouls. When I played a charge was an offensive foul by the ball handler.

Thanks for the clarification!!!!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I feel Picked on!!
 

In general - yes. Only nit-pickers like those of us on here care about the difference. :p