One Last Play

APG

One last play:

First of all, I believe this play is a blocking foul as I have the defender moving forward at the time of contact thus no LGP.

I think on the play, the administering official guessed on the play and was too focused on the thrower...especially seeing as the thrower wasn't being pressured. Even if he was, I was always thought you have to officiate the play around you on the throw-in and not focus solely on the thrower. Perhaps the official could have also been deeper towards the backcourt before he bounced the ball?

Also, with the new rule changes in NF, this is a perfect example of a team control foul.

Nevadaref

AllPurposeGamer wrote
One last play:

First of all, I believe this play is a blocking foul as I have the defender moving forward at the time of contact thus no LGP.

I think on the play, the administering official guessed on the play and was too focused on the thrower...especially seeing as the thrower wasn't being pressured. Even if he was, I was always thought you have to officiate the play around you on the throw-in and not focus solely on the thrower. Perhaps the official could have also been deeper towards the backcourt before he bounced the ball?

Also, with the new rule changes in NF, this is a perfect example of a team control foul.

Obvious charging foul. Inexperienced official. You note that he is not looking at the right action. He says, "player control" foul. The guy doesn't ever have the ball during the entire play. He give the PC signal, not the push/charge.

Lastly, the officials fail to switch following the foul. Even after the second foul near the end of the clip, it appears that they may not switch. The newish guy is simply standing there at T.

APG

Can't say I agree with your assessment of a charging call...I have the defender moving forward thus losing legal guarding position. Even if the defender stops momentarily before contact, I'd say the defender needs to re obtain LGP by getting two feet on the floor, torso facing the defender, and in this case, would have to give the proper time and distance for a moving player w/o the ball.

As far as the mechanics, not every place follows NF mechanics. I know in this situation, where I've worked, we only switch on shooting fouls in two person, no switching on offensive fouls, and no long switches.

Finally, the official in question was in his first year in the video.

CLH

I have to agree with the the offensive foul on this play. The defender is maintaining his position on the offensive player who is retreating. He is entitled to his spot on the floor, provided he obtained it legally, which he does. Offensive player suddenly decides to change his direction and goes to and through a legally established defender.

tref

One last play?? Whats up with that... keep em coming APG!

Those that say charge, I ask you to look at the left hand of the defender at the :15 mark, he clearly impedes the offensive players forward progress prior to the crash. IMO that is the first foul.

I would've liked to see the T get behind that matchup before administering the throw-in. But to be honest he was so locked in on the the non-guarded thrower, I dont think depth could have helped here. Maybe the thrower was a known violator in those parts 😀

CLH

tref wrote
One last play?? Whats up with that... keep em coming APG!

Those that say charge, I ask you to look at the left hand of the defender at the :15 mark, he clearly impedes the offensive players forward progress prior to the crash. IMO that is the first foul.

I would've liked to see the T get behind that matchup before administering the throw-in. But to be honest he was so locked in on the the non-guarded thrower, I dont think depth could have helped here. Maybe the thrower was a known violator in those parts 😃

Well, theres an old saying about elephants and ants when deciding fouls. If someone has to look on film and tell me look at this particular second of the play to find some little contact with a hand, that doesn't even rise to ant size for me. It may even go down to flea size 😉 I would stay away from "yeah but look at this" on reviewing a play. The decision to be made on this play is not about that hand, it's the b/c, no need to over analyze it.

Just my thoughts partner!

tomegun

From the comfort of my computer, I looked at the play several times so I can see why some would say offensive. At the time of the play, and assuming I was watching the players from the beginning, I probably would have called a block.

For those who say they wish he would have got behind the play before inbounding the ball: how far would you like him to go? He isn't especially close to the inbounder and at some point he has to open up as opposed to moving back - he could end up "bouncing" the ball from 20 feet away otherwise.

tref

CLH wrote
Well, theres an old saying about elephants and ants when deciding fouls. If someone has to look on film and tell me look at this particular second of the play to find some little contact with a hand, that doesn't even rise to ant size for me. It may even go down to flea size 😉 I would stay away from "yeah but look at this" on reviewing a play. The decision to be made on this play is not about that hand, it's the b/c, no need to over analyze it.

Just my thoughts partner!

Ok, if impedes away from the ball are mere fleas to you, so be it.

If we are allowing A1 to play through it (as he is the intended receiver) I got a block... either way its "staying here."

tomegun wrote
For those who say they wish he would have got behind the play before inbounding the ball: how far would you like him to go? He isn't especially close to the inbounder and at some point he has to open up as opposed to moving back - he could end up "bouncing" the ball from 20 feet away otherwise.

I like to be a few steps behind the deepest in bounds matchup (when possible). I understand about opening up to the court, but I also want to put myself in the best position possible to see plays like this in its entirety & also to referee the quck steal. I've found that positioning myself to be one play ahead of the throw-in results in getting unexpected plays correct.
IMO if a steal occured in this play the T (new L) is already beat.

JugglingReferee

For a first year official, I think this guy did quite well.

The learning points are:

when there is no pressure on the thrower-in, focus more on the action in-bounds, and only observe the TI with your peripheral vision
with the in-bounds action deeper than the TI, the administering official should be further away from the TI
for a foul against Team A, it is a charging foul, with the appropriate signal

As for the decision on the call, I believe it is very close. I have a block for the same reason APG mentioned. However, the action is so very close to a charge that if they were consistently called a charge throughout the game, I wouldn't say too much.

CLH

tref wrote
Ok, if impedes away from the ball are mere fleas to you, so be it.

Clear cut impedes, you bet, get 'em everytime...but, this particular play, if you're going to deem that illegal contact, then you are going to have a foul on every single play and every single throwin all night long. I never said don't allow freedom of movement, what I say is, this simply isn't enough to put a whistle on.

tref

CLH wrote
Clear cut impedes, you bet, get 'em everytime...but, this particular play, if you're going to deem that illegal contact, then you are going to have a foul on every single play and every single throwin all night long. I never said don't allow freedom of movement, what I say is, this simply isn't enough to put a whistle on.

Yeah, you're right! I stopped the frame-by-frame & went back to the entire play & that left hand piece is a small part of the big picture... block.

SWMOzebra

Going to have to go with a push on the offensive player as well. There is contact by the defender, but not enough IMO to create a disadvantage.

Yes, it would have been nice for the ref to have been looking at the players instead of the thrower-in and yes, it would have been nice for him to give the correct signal ... but I believe in the end the right player was penalized.

Jay R

I have a block.

1. As some stated, the defender is moving into the offensive player.

2. The offensive player does not have the ball so now time and distance apply similar to a screen. This is similar to blocking a cutter, you can't just jump in front of a cutter and expect an offensive foul when he runs you over. He needs time and distance.

APG

SWMOzebra wrote
Going to have to go with a push on the offensive player as well. There is contact by the defender, but not enough IMO to create a disadvantage.

Yes, it would have been nice for the ref to have been looking at the players instead of the thrower-in and yes, it would have been nice for him to give the correct signal ... but I believe in the end the right player was penalized.

The problem with how he went about getting the call is he guessed on the play...you can tell because the official turns his head when he sees bodies on the floor and hesitates before making a call.

tref

allpurposegamer wrote
the problem with how he went about getting the call is he guessed on the play...you can tell because the official turns his head when he sees bodies on the floor and hesitates before making a call.

tomegun

tref wrote
I like to be a few steps behind the deepest in bounds matchup (when possible). I understand about opening up to the court, but I also want to put myself in the best position possible to see plays like this in its entirety & also to referee the quck steal. I've found that positioning myself to be one play ahead of the throw-in results in getting unexpected plays correct.
IMO if a steal occured in this play the T (new L) is already beat.

Understood, got it, I agree. Now, how far would you go with this? To me, this is one of those "It depends" situations (not the adult diapers either). Yes, it is a good idea to be behind the deepest players, but are you going to "bounce" the ball 20 feet from the inbounder?

I don't have any set distance, but there is a point where I will open up instead of moving back. I don't think the official in the video is too far from where he should be. I could tell he was relatively inexperienced when watching the video, but he is doing OK for someone in their first year.

btaylor64

This is an impede on the defense in my opinion. Onus to be legal is on the defense. The off. fakes backward forcing the def. to come forward, now off. tries to go by and gets checked up by the shoulder of the defense. good play.

tref

tomegun wrote
Understood, got it, I agree. Now, how far would you go with this? To me, this is one of those "It depends" situations (not the adult diapers either). Yes, it is a good idea to be behind the deepest players, but are you going to "bounce" the ball 20 feet from the inbounder?

I don't have any set distance, but there is a point where I will open up instead of moving back. I don't think the official in the video is too far from where he should be. I could tell he was relatively inexperienced when watching the video, but he is doing OK for someone in their first year.

You're right.. it all depends. Just like any other positioning, I believe we have to have a feel for when to open up vs. stepping back when different throw-in situations arise.

Yeah the new guy isnt afraid to blow, gotta give him credit for putting a whistle on it!

Camron Rust

Block. Moving forward.

Pantherdreams

Well there are a couple of different ways to look at this (imo)

1 - If I'm the official in that situation and have not been looking at the play and suddenly this happens. I would like to think i'ld swallow my whistle (and my pride) on a play where I would be guessing based on the result. So in that exact situation as that guy (no call).

2 - Seeing the play the way it developed. I'm probably going to go push on the offense or maybe even double foul. My feeling based on what I'm seeing on camera is the offense isn't trying to get by the defense but rather crashing into defense trying to cause excessive contact and make a non-basketball play. Just as I'm seeing it. Either way I'm going to have a short convo with both after the call about playing basketball and not tag with each other.