Just for the record, I wouldn't mind doing girls games all the time. On another thread, someone commented about nobody wanting to do girls all the time, but I'm not nobody and I do want to do girls games all the time. I don't mind boys games, they are fun and interesting, but they distract me from the real meat of the thing which is girls ball. I am too old to have time to compete with all the folks that want to do boys, and mens ball. But womens college is very fast and interesting and capable, and I can get there doing all girls games. So what's wrong with that?

In fact, I only do girls games, mainly because our girls and boys boards here are separate, so doing both would mean two sets of dues, two sets of meetings, and having to put up with the b---s--- politics of the boys board and the extra attitude of the player, coaches, and fans.

Amen
 

I have been doing only women for 16 years now, high school and college. We also have two separate boards and to be honest with you, we have had quite a few men's officials come over due to the politics involved on the men's side. Not to say there aren't any on our side, but we do our best to keep it at a minimum. If that's what you enjoy doing, go for it!

Maybe it's one of those regional things, but if I had to do only girls games, I would quit officiating tomorrow. That's not an exaggeration. The girls ball around here is unbearable to officiate. I don't mind doing a half dozen games to help out the assignor, but the best girls game here is about on a par with an above average boys JV game. It just isn't any fun to do.

I will grant you that the attitudes of the players are by far much better than the attitudes of the boys, however.

Chuck

I do both girls and boys and find them equally enjoyable. Less egos on the girls side for the most part which I appreciate.

Z

I totally agree with Chuck. I would guit yesterday if I was subjected to officiating only girl's basketball.

I do disagree with the attitudes of girls. Girls tend to say more to you or try to persuade you more in my opinion. But I do not care about who has the better attitude. That to me has nothing to do with the reasons I like the Boy's or Men's game over the Girl's game and Women's game. Actually I like the competitiveness of the Men's game and I can officiate a bad team against a good team and I might still have a very competive game. I officiate a girl's game like that, I already know who is going to win and can probably tell you by how much. There is a reason UConn won 70 straight reasonly.

Peace

In the DC metro area, it is usually pretty clear who will win in girls ball - until you get the best against the best. This past weekend we had the MD regional finals in all four classes, and pretty much every game was competitive. I went to one of the 4A finals Saturday and it was a very well played, fast paced game - best I have seen this season. Saw Churchill HS a couple of times earlier this year, and the games were blowouts, including their semifinal last Thursday. All of the state final four games this weekend should be tight and well-played.

Incidentally, you frequently know with the boys who will win as well, until you cut the lower teams out and get to regional semis. Disparities abound on both sides of the house. And my experience in Illinois was no different. There are some haves and have-nots out there, and the haves generally wax the have nots. Maybe not by as much with the boys, but they still win easily.

There's nothing wrong with that.

Until you get to the elite level, I think all officials should "mix up" their schedules. There are benefits to reffing BOTH boys and girls.

Obviously the two games are different, and generally, boys is much higher caliber, though certainly not always.

But girls ball is a perfect training ground to teach game management and call selection to developing officials. Girls basketball is all about choosing which fouls to pass on, and how to officiate correctly while still accommodating flow into the game.

A well-played high-level girls game is fun. I admit for myself it's not as much fun as a well-played high-level BOYS game, but it's still great ball.

Having said all this, if there was no AP, I'd never want to do another girls game again. EVER. :D

Well said, Dan.

I officiate both boy's and girl's here in missouri and on the girls side of it the only difference I see other than the athleticism and the competiveness(sp?) of blowouts is that the boy's aren't as vindictive. Meaning that if there is a problem or something that upsets someone in the boy's game there is usually a reaction and it ends pretty much right away. In the girls games the same situation there may be a reaction right away but 4 or 5 possessions later they will make up for what happened. Sometimes it makes you have to keep on your toes more for the girls games than in some boys games.

I would rather do the boys games but if I was in a situation of having to be in 2 associations to get both I wouldn't have any problem doing all girls if would get more and more competitive games.

Hell hath no fury....

Girls Games
 

This year I had a 60-40 boys-girls schedule. The year started off with a huge girls tournament, which was ok. But as soon as I got into the "meat" of my schedule and started calling some boys games I quickly recalled why I much prefer the boys game. Now let me say this, I will never turn down a schedule due to all girls games nor will I quit yesterday, but if given the preference I would rather call boys 8th grade than girls varsity (that is of course if the pay was =) The girls game is played so far below the rim, usually all over the floor trying to tie up loose balls, that it can be difficult to keep a good flow going in the game. I love their spirit and determination, but if I were given the choice I would choose boys games all day.

Re: Girls Games
 

So are you saying that the 8th grade boys in your area are playing above the rim? This I'd like to see. ;)

There are plenty of 8th grade bys in AAU playing above the rim. I had a lower level travel team where one of my 8th graders could dunk (and had to resist the urge as it was illegal under league rules!). Higher level teams had even more players of this caliber and leaping ability.

Above the rim
 

Not so much above the rim, but around it, and definetly not all over the ground struggling for jump balls.

Coach, I've seen my fair share of very high caliber AAU teams, and I've got to say at the 8th grade level virtually no one can dunk the ball. Yeah, you run into an 8th grade kid every now & then who can go over the top of the rim, but their "dunks" are usually missed attempts. Very rarely you'll see an 8th grader who can dunk reasonably well. In my experience.

This topic seems to come up every year - usually about this time of the season...are there lots of blow-outs in girls ball? Yep...are there blow-outs in boys ball? Yep... a case in point - yesterday here in WA we had a State playoff game where one of the teams scored only 22 points the entire game, and yes it was a girl's game...meanwhile, we had a game where one of the teams scored exactly 0 (that's read zero) points in the first quarter on their way to losing by 25 points...and that was boys...it is certainly every person's right to choose to do only one side of the game, but to make comments like "be subjected to girls ball" is just plain stupid...

Around here (Baton Rouge/New Orleans) there are quite a few 8th grade teams that have player(s) that dunk. Some of them are older 8th graders and others are simply superb athletes. It is not all that uncommon to have a dunk in an 8th grade game around here.

Wow. Either you've got lots of very athletic 12 year olds or lots of very dumb 15 year olds! :)

Well if I were reffing 6th grade games, and seeing 12 year olds dunk then that would truly be amazing. But most of the kids are between 14-15 that I am talking about. Some have been held back (for whatever reason) and some are just that gifted.

This is my experience too. I've seen a couple 8th graders of this caliber, but only a couple.

Chuck

Rocky, as I said earlier, it may be a regional thing. But "being subjected to girls ball" is a fairly accurate assessment of the quality of ball around here. It may not be diplomatic or politically correct to say, but it's pretty close to the truth -- around here.

Chuck

Likes and dislikes about girls/boys ball (my .5 cents and please don't take offense - just my personal experience).
<UL>
<LI>
Speed (prefer the tempo of a boys game - although we use a 30-sec shot clock in girls here in WA which means girls can never "milk the time.")
<LI>
Body control better in boys.
<LI>
Less held balls in boys.
<LI>
Less sportsmanship of players in boy's games. No difference in coaches. Girls say "sorry" or "thank you" occasionally - never heard that in a boy's game.
<LI>
Parents of boy's are used to seeing their kid come up with a face full of dirt. Some parents of the "princesses" go nuts when their daughter gets bumped a little bit.
<LI>
Intensity in a boy's game is often better - until playoffs and then it's similar.
<LI>
Less ego in girl's game. Less girls falsely think they are D-1 worthy than boys do.
<LI>
The girl's official's association is <B> far </b> less political than the boy's association.
<LI>
Easier to throw a perfect toss on opening jump in a girl's game. :-)
</UL>

Z

8th graders are 13-14 years old, mainly 14 by the time they hit summer ball. In the DC metro area, any high caliber AAU team will have players who are well over 6 feet tall and can easily dunk.

I guess you're right, 13/14's, my bad. But to say "easily"
dunk? I don't know...Anyway AAU's cranking up soon in the
NY area, I'll report back to ya if I remember to take notice of what level I'm working. I guess we've run out of things to argue about!

What you observe, Jerry, IMO, is the nature of boys versus girls, in general. Boys, in daily work/play duke it out, wrestle around some, then it's forgotten. Girls, however, hold the grudges, and let things seethe for an undetermined length of time. This is not saying one gender is better, just different.

As far as refereeing games, I prefer boys for the faster pace and (generally) better skills. I agree, many an 8th grade boys game has been far better than the girls JV game the day before. However, being a female ref in Massachusetts will require me to "fight hard" to get the boys games (I'm talking Fr/JV). It will be a rough road if I decide to travel it.

I had the fortunate opertunity to work the 14-U AAU national girls tournament in Rochester, MN this past summer and let me tell you there are girls out there at this age level that can play ball. We worked 3 person mechanics (believe me it was nice to have in some of the games at this level) There were at least 4 teams there who had girls that were 6'6" or taller!!! I believe a team from california or Texas (won the tourney had two girls at this height) The eliter teams in this tourney could beat many if not all varsity girls teams in the area that I work. Just thought I would throw that out for seed.....

Gulp!!!
 

Because the responses to this thread are opinions, I will offer these comments as my opinion, and respectfully so.
In Michigan we have seperate seasons for the boy's and girl's seasons. (Girls=Aug.-Dec... Boy's=Dec.-March) So all of us do both boy's and girl's during the course of the school year. I work both.
I was taken aback by comments such as "subjected to" and "training ground for newer officials".
I understand that the caliber of girl's ball is different from region to region, but please, the girl's deserve the highest quality of officials just as much as the boy's. I believe that Chuck, Rut, and the other very good officials that posted, NEED to do these games. They need your experience and knowledge.
BTW, the caliber of the girl's ball in my area is pretty good, lots of big schools.
My attitude is "A game is a game, and every game deserves the best officials calling it". JMHO

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/sally.gif
You tell 'em queen....

BUT, I believe my use of the phrase "developing officials" was misinterpreted (or miscommunicated).

Like it or not, at some levels, girls basketball is used for agree or not, girls basketball is used to help developing officials....officials that are capable, but perhpas fine-tuning their game to get to the next level.

Sooner or later, in any ballgame, you will see an official who is there to see if she/he is ready for that level. It is not possible (or, from an officials' group perspective, even desirable) to have the very best officials possible for every single game. No one would develop that way.

No one, especially not me, meant to imply that girls' games aren't good (I love doing good, high-level girls ball). But the boys/mens game is a different level.

Re: Gulp!!!
 

Oatmealqueen: My Michigan friend tells me that your state will be switching to boys/girls same season soon. You will soon see what we "same season states" are talking about as far as boys/girls game preference. There are definitely big politics and biases here regarding being on the boys and/or girls side, and who moves up, and who gets games, etc. Hopefully there will be good organization, and perhaps separate game days for girls and boys games in Michigan. Otherwise, you can expect many unhappy refs when they get assigned girls games instead of boys games. It will be interesting to see how the ball bounces, so to speak.

We just finished our first "same season" year here in Montana. Our games, boys and girls, are assigned by the same groups. The State Office told us it has to be that way under Title 9, and locally, the "Ridgeway Settlement". Officials should be assigned a somewhat equal number of boys and girls games.

Blackhawk

I'd be interested in hearing how it works out. At the girl's 4A tourney here in Oregon this year, I overheard some of the tourney refs who were watching, joking about how they hadn't had a girls' game in five years, and this was such a big adjustment. I gotta admit, it annoyed me. What to do about it, I'm waiting to see.

Re: Gulp!!!
 

What I do not understand and will never understand, why do I or other officials have to do what you do to be happy? So you assume that your area has better girl's basketball than mine, a claim I never made. And because of the greatness of your area of basketball is going to somehow change my mind on what is girl's basketball. NOOOOOOTTTTT!!!!!

Sorry to disappoint but I have a preference. I have attended the Big Ten Men's Tournament for the past 4 years no matter where it was located. I have never attended the Women's side of the Big Ten Tournament, there is a reason that is. I do not enjoy the game. I would rather sit and home a play March Madness 2003 and waste (yes I said waste) my time trying to watch a game I do not enjoy. Every game does not deserve the best officials, but the best officials that want to be there. I cannot do a service to a game I do not enjoy on many levels. But we live in this PC world and think that everyone has the same likes. I know many officials that have no desire to officiate Men's or Boy's basketball, I never try to suggests they need to give up girl's ball to do a boy's game.

Peace

OMC- well stated, but don't be surprised by this response. Last winter when I defended girls ball, I was accused of being PC and had my sexual orientation questioned tby this same individual. Neither was warranted by anything I said, just goes to show the depth of the feeling about girl's ball.

jrut - nobody said anything about liking it. What was said is that there are many extremely talented girls teams and that they deserve top quality refereeing. Unfortunately, the bias against girls ball that is so prevalent in officials means that the girls frequently must settle for second best (or third or fourth or fifth best). They deserve better than that, and the HS associations should ensure that all athletes under their purview get equal and fair treatment. If that means you have to do a distasteful chore of reffing girls varsity to get your boys games, so be it. But I like the policy that demands that varsity refs do both sides.

The NCAA distinction is a different animal altogether. The competition for jobs on both sides ensure that the quality is pretty high, especially for the big games in the big conferences. And the rules for NCAA women vs men have some substantial differences, so specialization at that level makes sense.

Re: Gulp!!!
 

OMQ, I certainly did not intend to give offense by my comments. But how can you be taken aback by the fact that lower quality games are used as a training ground for higher quality games? Do 7th/8th grade teams expect to get the best varsity officials? No. Those are games that are given to less experienced officials to prepare them for high school ball. Do NBDL teams get Jake O'Donnell or Hue Hollins or Violet Palmer on their games? No, b/c even tho the games are just as important to the players (probably moreso, since they don't have huge guaranteed contracts) the quality of ball is lower and it's a perfect place to see if less experienced officials can handle the game.

This is not a girls ball/boys ball thing. It's just the way it's done.

They might deserve it, but they don't need it in my area. I'm not saying that some officials are "too good" to do the games. (I still do my share of 7th/8th grade games.) But if you've got the top two boys teams playing on the same night as the top two girls teams, then in my area, the better officials need to be at the boys game.

With all due respect, OMQ, and I mean that sincerely, I don't need to do girls games in western MA. I'm not going to improve my officiating skills or be challenged mentally in 99% of the girls games that are played.

Do the teams need my experience? Maybe. But the game would go just as smoothly -- most of the time -- if it were officiated by two very good JV boys officials.

Now, please, please, please, do not take my comments to be more than they are. I am not denigrating young women, or minimizing the importance of women's sports. When I work a HS girls game (I did 9 this season, including a regional semi-final playoff game), the girls get 100% of my effort and attention. I still hustle, my mechanics are still sharp, I treat the girls with nothing but respect.

All I am saying is that, most of the time, where I live and ref, the highest quality officials are not required to ensure a smooth-running and fairly officiated girls contest.

Chuck

Chuck
I find your arguments pretty compelling. I guess it really depends on the depth of your officiating pool. I saw two guys that can't handle a MS girls game get assigned to ref two of the top 4A girls teams last season. The game was very poorly handled, a typical outing for this pair. Inconsistent calls, poor handling of the post play, a lot of ball-watching, etc. I have watched them for years and they were at their best that night, which still ain't too pretty. The game was well-played, came down to the last shot, and the girls deserved better officials. You ar etalikng about two of the top ten teams in the DC metro area.

If you have good enough JV officials that can and will (or must) handle these games, give them these games. But I have read quotes saying that refs would rather do MS boys than HS girls, which shortchanges the HS girls. They work too hard at this to get sub-standard officiating.

Coach, I always appreciate the fact that you take my comments as intended. That's a great "people person" trait. Thank you.

Here comes a very badly worded sentence (caveat Juulius ;) ). Just b/c girls games can be handled adequately with less experienced officials in my area, doesn't mean that you should have to tolerate unqualified officials in your own games repeatedly. If you are getting officials that can't handle your games, that is the fault of either the assigning authority, or of the officials' association. They should be ensuring that they have a sufficient number of qualified officials to cover the games that need them. That's a recruiting/training/evaluating issue.

I also want to make clear that I would welcome the chance to officiate high quality girls high school ball. There's just not a lot of it around me.

Chuck

You cannot make officials do anything. You either are not going to have officials at all if you do this. In my area if I work both boy's and girl's games, I am almost working every single night. Now I do not have a wife or kids to contend with. You cannot make a father that wants to watch his daughter play ball, officiate on nights that only girls play. If girl's are getting the short end of the stick by officials making a choice, I really do not see how you are going to make them change that. So I do not know what world you are living in to think anyone can make anyone officiate something they do not want to do. I do not think you really thought this through.

Peace

jrut
I do think I thought it through, and I think that Blackhawk's state has thought it through and come to the conclusion that I recommended. I can see granting an exception for an official who can demonstrate that he or she has a daughter playing ball (or a son for that matter) where there would be a direct conflict between their kid's games and the games they would be assigned. The rule is simple - you want to do boys, you get some girls games as well. Assigners give varsity assignments versus varsity boys and varsity girls. I would be interested in knowing how many officials in Blackhawks area quit when forced to do girls games. my bet is it wasn't many.

Re: Re: Gulp!!!
 

Rut..
I was trying to give you a compliment, and you inserted way more verbage than I intended. I guess that'll teach me.

Re: Re: Gulp!!!
 

Chuck,
I am not offended by your comments at all. It was my way of giving you a compliment, as I feel that ALL games deserve the best officials. I also may have misread the thread about 'training ground'. Certainly there are many games that should be used for that.

guilty
 

I was the one that made the remark you refer to above. It was an idle remark, (I make a lot of those) with no offense intended to anyone. My ignorance on a variety of issues continues to amaze me. I did not know that they had separate seasons for boys and girls anywhere. Around here, (Louisiana) the seasons are the same, so the vast majority of assignments are for 2 games a night, 1 boys and 1 girls.
It is sometimes true, especially in jr. high, that it is a huge relief when the girls game is over and you can get to the boys game. I have found myself making parallels in ability levels: Those 6th grade boys were as good as those 8th grade girls, etc. BUT, there are exceptions. You can have a high quality, competitive girls game and when it is followed by a lousy boys game, that also can seem to take forever. I have been to the state tournament for both boys and girls here in LA, and found most of the games to be very enjoyable at both, but overall the girls tournament was the more pleasant of the two. The reason? Crowds. For the girls you could drive up shortly before game time, walk right in with little or no waiting, and get an excellent seat. The one time we attended the Top 28 at Lafayette, Saturday was a split session, with a break. (go out and pay again) It took over an hour shuffling along in a solid mass of humanity, to get back in and fight for a nosebleed seat. The night session was a sellout, for the first time ever they said, and I believe a good many people were turned away from the 5A game.
The point of all this is that the fans apparently prefer the boys games, so I don't blame officials who do as well, but I think any true fan of the game should be able to appreciate a well played girls game. :)

Is there an explanation for this? Is it just a dip in a cycle? Is there so much emphasis on the boys game that the girls game pales by comparison and cannot attract quality coaching? ($ shortage?)

Not everyone lives in Blackhawk's area.
 

This would all be fine and dandy if assignments were given out like you suggest. But in my area we have Boy's assignors and then Girl's assignors. And in that rare case that an assignor has both, he does not request you to do one or the other. And not much different than what goes on in Chuck's area, the younger less experienced officials get opportunities at the Girl's side much quicker then the Boy's side. It is way easier to get hired to do Girl's varsity game than it is to get hired to do a Boy's varsity. It is just the way it is. And if assignors resorted to that tactic, they might not get as many quality officials trying to work for them. They might also get run out of those conferences for putting officials on both sides of the ball. Just because at the College level the mechanics are different and the rules are different, do not think that the expectations are the same because it is HS ball.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Gulp!!!
 

Well then do not tell me what I need to do. There is nothing wrong with having a choice and a preference. Sorry, but officiating is a hobby for the most part. It is something that I do not have to do one way or another.

Peace

Hey, do I get some kind of trophy for starting a thread that has stayed on topic for four pages?

I'm not sure there's a Slappy for that category :)

Just y'all be glad this wasn't called "People Skills...."
:D

Winner and champion
 

I get the award for that one.