http://www.collegesports.com/sports/...022203aar.html
Player's Flag Protest Drawing Strong Reactions

Manhattanville's Toni Smith is greeted by boos when she turns her back on the American flag in protest at games.



Feb 22, 2003


NEWBURGH, N.Y. (AP) - A college basketball player who turns away from the U.S. flag during the national anthem was jeered by flag-waving students at a road game, even while she was on the bench.


Toni Smith, a senior at Manhattanville College, was booed at Mount St. Mary at a game Thursday night.


Smith is protesting "that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power." She has turned away from the flag all season.


Before Thursday's game, the Mount St. Mary student government handed out small flags before the game. More than 500 people filled the small gym, and jeered Smith at every opportunity.


At the end of the game Thursday night's game between Manhattanville and Mount St. Mary's, the crowd sang "God Bless America."


When Manhattanville played at the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy on Feb. 11, more than 300 flag-waving midshipmen greeted Smith with chants of "USA" and "Leave our country."


When Smith picked up two fouls in the first three minutes and was benched, the crowd chanted, "We want Toni," according to The Journal News.


"For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me. As they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag," Smith said in a statement released Thursday.


Manhattanville President Richard Berman said he told Smith "what she's doing is courageous and difficult."

Gutsy.

And to think that our grandfathers fought and some died for her freedom.........pretty shelfish of her.

I like her. She reminds me of when I was young and stupid!

You go Toni!!!
 

When we live in a country that allows or supports the waving of an enemy flag for the purpose of heritage, than someone should be able to turn their back or disagree for the things that flag stands for. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/soapbox.gif

Peace

kenref1,

If you truly believe in the values you Americans so fervently claim to hold true, you will acknowledge this young lady's right to protest, even if to watch her protest makes every fibre of your being cry out in rage.

What you now know as the United State of America was founded on a frontier spirit that placed great value on community, but ultimately cherished individual freedoms. It's that principle that powered your triumph over the British, and every triumph after that. It's a cornerstone of your Constitution. It's exactly what those revered War Veterans were fighting for.

If you are a true believer in freedom you will tolerate someone who shouts, at the top of her lungs, something that you would devote a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.

This does not diminish your right to oppose her views. But you cannot invalidate them any more than she can do so to you.

Part of being American (and Canadian, for that matter) is recognizing that things which infuriate you are as much a part of freedom as things that inspire you.

Excellent post,Canuckrefguy!

Do I agree with Ms. Smith's position? NO!
Do I believe that she has the right as an American citizen?
YES!
Does it #$^#& me off immensely to see this happen? YES!
Does she have the right to do this peacefully? Again YES!

As much as I hate to see her do it (and if I were in a position to tell her so, I would counsel her in as strong a language as I could to change her position), men and women have fought, been wounded, and died fighting for this freedom of expression.

Whether you agree or not with her position (again NO I DON'T), she has the right to do it peacefully.

But dang it, it still ticks me off personally.

BTW-don't you know her high school civics class is having a real-time case study on the Bill of Rights....

-C

Protests such as this are a real Catch - 22. She is turning her back on the one symbol IN THE WORLD that allows her to turn her back. Her statement is a well written VAGUE statement of purpose. What exact inequalities she does not say. She is one of the most free women in the world and the symbol she turns her back on is the reason why. I will not bore you with what other countries do, but what she is doing, while perfectly legal and right, is being handled totally inappropriately.
If she does not want to salute the flag, she has EVERY right to, no matter how many people it pisses off. BUT, where is the respect of others that she asks for herself? Why not just stay in the locker room until the National Anthem is over? You have your protest, you make your point, you still get booed, but at least you are RESPECTFUL. Finally, she states that she did not "want" this publicity. I think her actions, and statement, show that is NOT the case.
Where is the soap box gif? I am getting off mine now!!

Re: You go Toni!!!
 

I think its a slap in the face myself. People who protest our flag should move to IRAQ or North Korea for a week to see how bad it is and then move back. Maybe then they would appreciate the FREEDOM the flag stands for. I have no argument with you if you disagree with the actions of our government but you should at least respect the flag.

I'd throw in a "if you dont like it here get the hell out" but I'm sure that would stir up some controversy.

Eh, heck with it...Bring it on.....Toni....if you dont like it here, take your disrespect and disdain for our country and go somewhere else.....France comes to mind.

First of all, this is not a first-ammendment issue. No one is claiming she should go to jail for her behavior. Similarly, just as she has the right to pull this stupid stunt, the students opposed to her have every right to protest it as loudly as legally is allowed. Something about the goose and the gander....
Secondly, she's protesting the wrong thing. The flag is the very symbol of the freedom that allows her to protest. She frankly makes herself look juvinile.
I dare her to try such a protest in any corner of the Axis of Evil. Guaranteed she'd get a lot worse than chants from the Merchant Marine cadets. Contrary to what her pandering college president may have said, her protest doesn't take courage or guts. Guts is going to Iraq and turning your back on Hussein's portrait or the Iraqi flag. It does, however, take collossal ignorance.
Finally, I liked Geno Auriemma's comments. If she were one of his players, she'd be off the team and her scholarship would be revoked. She's representing her college, and apparently she's representing her college president pretty well.

Now, I'll go back to defending her right to be stupid.

Adam
SSGT, Iowa Air National Guard

Why is it the people who will never fight for this right want to express it the most.

You go Toni!!!
 

Larks,

Most people do not know what that is or even get upset when the flag is displayed or shown improperly. Please do not tell me what is disrespectful when I was a JROTC Color Guard and had to put a flag up on a poll on a daily basis and bring it down every evening. Interesting that you claim she disrespected the flag but said nothing about the man that dragged the flag over the floor to protest her position. His actions were much more disrespectful than anything Toni did to the flag. But then again, it shows how uneducated people that tell others to move to another country do not know what should be done to that fabric we call a "symbol of our country."

Peace

Are your children fighting?
 

You are telling me that you have to fight for this country to express decent? What kind of logic is that? Why don't the people that are so fired up to go to war send their children or sign up themselves? I do not see the folks who are actually making this decision being the first in line to go to Baghdad. When I see your children go I will then believe in your true committement that you claim others should have. Most of the people in the military now are there to go to school, not go to war. That is the reason they joined in many cases. That is why we have so many folks from certain backgrounds disportionate to what the actual makeup of this country is. When I see the Eron's children on the front lines, I will then by that philosophy.

Hell our President was sheilded from serving directly in harms way. But he has the nerve to send other folks children and husbands and wives to die for something his father would not allow his behind to do himself. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/conf.gif

Peace

On a slightly related note, as an agnostic, I resent hearing one nation, under GOD... before games. What happened to separation of church and state? This word in this context seems an endorsment of religion, and that seems wrong. I would hope even if you are a christian, you would understand the principle.

I wish I had the courage to make a statement, but frankly, it does not seem worth it. I can only hope the current case before the Sepreme Court relating to the saying the pledge in school by a atheist student takes out this word. I have no problem pledging allegience to the flag, country etc, it's just the god part that bothers me.

As you may know, the word was inserted in 1954 in a knee jerk reaction to the "godless commies"

My only statement is to refrain from saying the word, and in truth, hearing the word will not stop me from doing the job- or sleeping at night-it's just the principle.

[Edited by Tee on Mar 2nd, 2003 at 02:43 AM]

Is this a basketball site or what? Find another site to express your opinions about freedom, war, etc...

Red Neck Ref, it is the venue in which she chose to protest that makes this worthy of discussion here. If Toni chose any other place other than a basketball game to protest then we would not be discussing it.

BTW I guess that makes her pretty smart, because everybody is talking about it now...even here on this site. So what if she turns her back on the flag at a protest march with 100 other people, but when she does it during the National Anthem at her D3 basketball game everybody hears about it because it stands out. She got our attention.

I don't agree with her protest and would never do it myself, but I guess she has the freedom to put down the symbol of the government that grants her that freedom.... We have to recognize that the freedoms we enjoy also apply to those with which we dissagree.

The land of the free....yes....but not really
 

Toni Smith has every right to turn her back on the flag. In a country as "free" as ours she has the right to paint a picture of Saddam and worship him if she sees fit. But then again there are some people who don't think Toni should be able to turn her back on the flag....well guess what people thats the definition of free. For all those who disagree....great. But for those who disagree and think that Toni should "move to Iraq or North Korea" or be punished in some way, you idiots should move to Iraq or North Korea or some place where they dictate what you do. Because thats just what you're trying to do, dictate.
Afterall, it's just a flag people. And now you are thinking yeah but people died for the flag, my father blah blah blah....my grand father blah blah blah......no they didn't die for the flag. They died because our government and the governments of other countries decided to go to war and the people of this country got drafted. Get it out of your heads that this flag represents freedom because it doesn't it represents the United States of America and yeah we say we're free, but look closer.

PZ

Its Ironic that people that fought in the Vietnam war are so against Toni Smith, that war is universally considerd wrong these days.
People keep saying she has the right to express her opinion that she has a right to free speech, thats true she does, but beyond that what Toni Smith is expressing what she is saying is not being heard. Toni Smiths message is a great one this country overlooks everything it took to become what we are, clearly the greatest nation on this planet. But in order to become great our Amercan ancestors killed, lied, cheated, those things are crimes and stains on that flag but the greater crime is trying to forget these injustices instead of making them right to the best of our ability.
Our President is against things like affirmative action a pitance of what blacks are owed in this country(oh boy did I say owed), But this is a man who sent more blacks to the chair than any politician ever, thats a fact and what does it say about really making this country great.
I wouldnt want to live in any other country on the globe but we need to remember what it took to get here. And lets not think that our milatary is so naive as to not know that we have major skeletons in the closet, when they fight for this nation they fight for the good and bad in our history.

"Are your children fighting?"
Rut,
As a matter of fact one is....He was deployed on the 15th
of Febuary. I am a retired vet and now work for the DOD,
Last year I was deployed and will probably go again.
Notice I never said anything about right or wrong, I just pointed out that those who wish to express this right the most will probably be the first in line to give up that right if it actually had to be defended thru conflict.
So go ahead say what you want to say, afterall that right
was bought and payed for by someone else...enjoy it while
it is available.
Nightstalkers Don't Quit!

no one should have to fight to express dissent. In fact, in any other nation in the world most have this right without having to listen to a sea of weepy, preachy veterans (not all, of course) and elders who say that "people have fought and died for that flag". In brief, in a less warlike and violent nation the accusation that one must have fought in the armed forces to voice dissent would be completely disregarded.
Sure, people have fought and died for that flag. That was THEIR choice. But ours, mine and apparently that of Toni Smith and those like her, is to remain living. To live in a democracy is not the action of lazy beings, it is not the realm of spoiled, opinion bloated ignorants.
Civilians have every right, just as much as those in the military, to voice any dissent that they might have with their govt.
And since the flag has long represented oppression and imperialism for most living abroad, objecting to it is a good starting point for voicing such dissent.

[Edited by radiofreeusa on Mar 2nd, 2003 at 12:21 PM]

This is the most ridiculous thing that i have ever heard. If we weren't always fighting for our interests we wouldn't have to defend this "freedom" of which you speak.

Most living abroad??? Ask all the people of all the countries we have fought to defend and liberate if they feel this way. The news shows only protesters abroad. You won't see news stories interviewing the average person on how they feel about the help the US has given to hundreds of million people all over the globe.

Maybe we can appreciate this country more if we try to visualize what the world would be like today if we didn't have the foreign policy that we do have. Instead of Euro Disney, the French would be visiting Euro Hitler, for starters.

It's kind of interesting that we've got 3 brand new posters -- illy, brooklynite, and radiofree -- who show up simultaneously, have almost empty profiles, post in only one thread, and all think the U.S. sucks. I have no idea what that means, if anything, it's just curious. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/conf.gif

Euro Hitler?

that's rich.

I think if you ask most people who have been "liberated and freed" by the invading US military they would say what G.Washington and company would have said, that it is better to fight for your own freedom than owe it to a coke swilling, gas-guzzling giant thousands of miles away.

Better to have one tyrant on the block than three thousand in the neighboring city...

I thought the same thing Chuck. That is why I am ignoring their comments. :)
No real discussion, just someone looking for a reaction.

that's odd. i haven't attacked a single post on the site. Apparently disagreement isn't well tolerated here.

OOPS!

that's what you call an attack?
when you use your background and experience to attack those without it simply to defend your idea it is much worse than saying that something is "ridiculous"

Well,if you maybe hadda commented on a basketball post sometime,we might actually think that you were interested in officiating-instead of just being a troll wandering through.That goes for the other two trolls who came out of the ether,too.

i was looking for a discussion regarding this topic.

My point, if you bothered to notice, was that you cannot ask "most people who have been liberated and freed" because the only ones who have a voice that is shown on the news are the ones who protest. I believe they represent a small minority of those we have helped.

BTW - you obviously don't know anything about George Washington if you think he wouldn't be in favor of the US foreign policy as it stands.

Also BTW - where do you officiate?

George Washington warned against the perils of empire and the imperial tendencies of government. He would be completely on the side of those who protest this misrepresented war.
BTW, do you need to officiate to post here?
and, its ironic how your icon on your posts ALSO has a man saluting his emperor and turning his back on the flag.

Last time I looked, we didn't have an emperor in this country, we have a President. Now it all becomes clear. You're not from here. All along, you're criticizing the foreign policy of your country, and it's not even the United States. It's some country with an emperor, like Ethiopia.

BTW - my soldier doesn't have his back "turned" on his flag. It's a representation of how our nation (symbolized by our flag) backs up our military.

anyway you want to see it, patriot....

nice point about Ethiopia, good thing the US really helped them out of that famine they had over there...and while you're at it, ask women in Afghanistan if they enjoy more freedoms now that we're seeing a resurgence in the Taliban.

Thanks for the compliment.


I guess we need to go back and finish the job.

That's the point. We claim to bring these great ideals to everyone around the world.
its a half-assed job that we leave in the wake...

OK - riddle me this. What are the four elements required for an over and back call?

HAH! Gotcha.