This is what I did in a JH game:

Team A's PG was dribbling the ball up the floor and was about as close to a carry as you can get. The first time he actually carried the ball, the ball was knocked out of his hand and OOB.While going to retrive the ball, I calmly told him to "Watch your dribble-you are close to a violation.Make sure you keep your hand on top of the ball." and he nodded his head and proceeded to play a better game. This was the first time that I had said something to the effect of giving a helpful hint to a player DURING a GAME.Now ,while under the boards, I have told players to watch the pushing and to keep an eye on the 3 seconds. After the game, I showered and got dressed back into my tuxedo(g)...errr...dress shirt and slacks. As I was walking out ,Team A's coach tracked me down and asked me what I had said to his PG.Itold the coach what I told him and he said that that was probably the best thingto happen to him all year and that he had been telling him that when the right official came along that he would call the violation. I felt good about the compliment from the coach but should I have said something to the player or just have let it go and called the violation the next time it occurred?

I think there's a line between preventative officiating and on-court coaching. IMHO, what you did was over the line. I know you had good intentions, but we can't "coach" kids on fundamentals.

Well, sure we CAN, Mark. I've had several partners who were very good at it! I think what you mean is we shouldn't!!

So what do you tell the kid when he asks you what he did to get the carry call? This is JR High ball, let the kid know. If he doesn't know by high school then you can just call it and move on.

I think the question isn't one of telling him what he did wrong when you call a violation (if he asks in an appropriate manner!). Mark is questioning the pre-warning of a potential violation as opposed to simply observing play and calling the violation if and when it is warranted. If the kid is carrying and his coach doesn't note it and tell him about it (or if the coach does and the kid ignores it), then that is not your problem.

I tell my players when I see them commit "fouls" that aren't called (but may be soon if they keep doing it!), or when they are pushing for a violation to be called (e.g., hanging out in the lane). For instance, I have a guard who tends to dive in with the back shoulder on a ball hanlder as they go by, leading to lots of "reach-in" calls. I'll give her a little shoulder twitch and she knows what I am saying. I try to do it in a way where the player knows what I mean and I don't tell the whole gym they should have just had a foul or violation called on them. That is my job, not the ref's job.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Feb 20th, 2003 at 05:39 PM]

I'm with Mark all the way on this one.If a ballplayer asks a polite question on a rule,by all means you should answer it. You shouldn't be initiating the conversation,though,when it comes to fundamentals like dribbling,shooting,passing,etc. The problem is that you don't know exactly what the coach is teaching their ballplayers.You may be contradicting the coach's teaching.In this case,there might not be a problem saying "watch your dribble". The problem is in saying "keep your hand on top of the ball". Hand location doesn't really matter in this call.What matters is whether the ball came to rest in the hand or not. JMVHO!

On the junion high level
 

I'm a little more willing to "coach" a kid out of a violation. Right or wrong I feel good about it in the leagues I have done.

dsimp is merely practicing preventative officiating. If dsimp was "coaching" the kid on his shooting technique, I can see the argument that it was over the line. Warning a kid about a potential violation, especially in a junior high game, will save everyone from having to drag the game out longer and making the experience worse.

To answer your question, dsimp8, no you were not wrong. This statement pretty much sums it all up - <b>"that was probably the best thingto happen to him all year and that he had been telling him that when the right official came along that he would call the violation."</b>

Yes, I agree with whistleone. At this level, you are part coach and part referee, I wouldn't stop the game to do it but if you can discreetly do this it is no big deal and will help your game.

Additional consideration
 

A good friend of mine coaches a 7th grade girls team. They can only get two 90 minute practices per week scheduled for their gym and they have lost several of those allotments to various other school functions. It is unreasonable to think he can legitimately cover all the nuances of the rules and teach all the fundamentals that some officials are insisting should not be "coached" on the court.

I am NOT a believer of conducting coaching clinics, but brief hints and explanations as needed are a necessity at this level.

Good skills DSimp, "way to go"

Not that different than other situations.
 

I hope that we are informing players of possibly committing fouls in the post or putting hands on the ball carrier, why is telling a kid quitely that he might violate a rule? I tell them about not violating possibly on FT attempts in the lane, why is this any different?

Peace

At this level, I think a little "preventative officiating" can do a lot to help the game flow, and the players improve. You didn't go looking for opportunities to coach the kid. But you saw a situation where a "word to the wise" would make the game better. Sounds pretty win-win to me. Two thumbs, way up!

I disagree.

If he had stopped the game, conducted a mini-clinic on proper ball handling, then sent the kid off to run some drills, that would have been coaching.

If he had taken time to talk to the player about the right way to dribble, that would have been coaching.

What he did is to let the kid know that he was getting awfully close to the line on a violation. And he did it to avoid calling a violation that would almost certainly be in the category of "obvious violations" rather than the "violations that matter to the game."

We do the same thing to avoid calling three seconds, throw in violations after a basket when there is no defender, a T on a coach who is getting near the line, etc. etc. etc.

The only thing I would add is: once you've warned them, be ready to call it if the warning goes unheeded.

"Get out of the lane. Keep moving."

"Get the hands off."

"Easy! Easy!"

"Hey guys. Knock it off."

I've used all of these, sometimes more than one in a game. I definitely look for an opportunity to let the post players know I'm watching off ball. I don't warn all night, though. Just when the play's getting a bit aggressive or when both players are tussling and calling a foul on one would be unreasonable.

Preventive officiating. So it the original situation. I may word it a bit differently -- "Awful close to a carry" maybe. But there is nothing wrong with that. I did something similar in a girls varsity game Friday night. Or maybe I called the violation first. Too long ago, one week.

Rich

I think the answer lies entirly with what leval of games you are doing and the closeness of the score. If it is a close game and you help one team by preventing turnovers then I wouldn't say anything, just call the violation.

I've got 5 kids and the last one is in 5th grade now. I have been coaching 3rd - 6th grade boys and girls for about 10 years. Teams and coach have been at various levals. I have never appreciated and official coaching my kids. For example, I've been telling her all year to stop carrying the ball and that she is going to get called on it. Now what happens? Some ref takes it upon theirself to tell her again.

Please, Mr. official, call the violation, she knows and it doesn't help her, her team, or her coach for you to tell her again.

Sorry for the venting.
Stan

I think that the original context is being lost here. What we had was a play that would have been a violation had the carried dribble been continued. But the defender swiped the ball as it was being carried, so there was no violation. In this case, the ref is just giving a warning of a potential future violation, not passing on the call and issuing a warning.

As for coaching, I had a ref last year who called one of my players for a hold on an inbounds play. We reset for the inbounds, she gets whistled again. The second was an absolutely atrocious call - all contact was initiated by the offense (three successive hard forearms to the back before my player made any contact) - but that's beside the point other than the fact tha now my player has two fouls AND is really POd about the second. I am trying to sub for her, while the ref proceeds to deliver a lecture to her about her fouling and how if she keeps this up she will be gone, blah, blah, blah. . . I was more mad about the lecture than the bad foul call. Leave the coaching to me.

right
 

Thanks Hawks Coach.I thought the intent of my post was getting twisted into me NOT calling the violation and warning the player. I would not have been doing my job if I had let it go and had every intention of calling the carry. In fact I was so intent on calling the carry that I almost blew the ball dead before it hit the floor OOB after the defender swiped it away.

one or the other
 

As a father/fan/coach, I think a word of advice to the PG was commendable. But to answer a question that wasn't asked, I think a ref should do one thing (quietly offer advice/teaching), OR the other (call the violation/foul), but NEVER both. If you call a violation, any explaining should be done to the coach. We had a situation earlier in the year in a girls HS F/S game where we were trying to foul at the end of a game. The ref didn't call the first 2 attempts, so one of our sophomores fouled hard. The ref called this one, and then lectured the girl that she could hurt someone playing like that. It took all my self control to not scream at him that if he would have called the first 2, she wouldn't have had to foul harder (I know this topic is covered in a different thread)! It took 2 weeks to get that girl back to the proper level of aggressiveness on the court.

Re: one or the other
 

Thanks John. Another good point on this. And remember, we coaches (if we are coaching correctly) know our players and how to communicate effectively with each of them. The message I send to this player may be totally different than that which the ref sends because I know that this player will benefit from hearing it said a certain way. The ref may wind up doing more harm then good by atempting to coach my player or correct them. Make the call and move on.

I use that type of preventative officiating on the JH girls level all the time, especially when you see their skill levels. UGH!

What you did was fine in my mind. All you did was tell a player he was close to violating the rules and to be careful. That to me is not coaching.