Had this play last night.
Packed, loud gym, first place on the line, final game of the regular season.
I'm L.
A1 driving toward the basket on a fast break.
B1 whacks A1 across the mid-section.
C whistles the foul just before A1 crosses the FT line.
A1 takes two more dribble, jumps, and slams it home.
I heard the whistle.

Call?

I'll assume we are working HS Federation rules.

This may be another HTBT (had to be there). But in my game, if I thought he had a chance to stop (which it sounds like he did) and was showboating, I'd ring him up.

Hey! Get the ball to a ref next time, ...or nuthin'.

Put me with the no call group.

His reaction time is not that fast to stop his mental momentum to the basket.

He may not have heard the whistle.

If you call it you better be ready to sell it big time.

I got nothin'.

However, I agreee with Blackhawk that this may be a HTBT. The reason that I say this is because I know that Tony wouldn't be asking this question if it wasn't a closer call than what it may appear in the original post.

What if this player was showboating or taunting the opposition, or was the gym so loud that he couldn't hear the whistle coming from the C? Has anything else like taunting / smack-talk occured in this game? I also noticed that you mentioned that it is the last game of the season. Would you treat this sitch differently because of that fact?

Just stirring the pot a bit. :)

Honestly, I felt the call was clear - T. As I said, I was L and had already taken two steps off the end line, onto the floor when A1 went up and dunked the ball. As I said, I clearly heard the whistle and didn't see any reason that A1 shouldn't either.

We discussed the play at halftime but really didn't make a conclusive decision as to whether the T could have been passed on or not. I simply felt that the dunk came far too long after the whistle to ignore.

Mike, I only included the information regarding the game to express what the conditions were like in the gym. It was pretty intense. "Sell it big time?" Nah, didn't have to. The only reaction from the coach was to put hsi hands to his head. I'm not sure if he didn't like the call or was unhappy with the player. All I know is he never said a word to me and he took A1 out of the game.

In any case, the game wasn't close, with B winning by 18. In the long run, the T meant very little in the game.

In two-three weeks, ... T'd a player in one game and a coach in another.
Sounds like the end of a long season. ;)
mick

Nope!

Sounds like you both are now failures as officials!!

HeeHeeHeeHee......

I hear ya, JR! :)

mick, i agree with you. Seems like the last two weeks of the season, there was a lot of frustration.

Too bad.
 

You need to be a professional and get over it. Stop looking to T everyone.

Peace

Re: Too bad.
 

You need to http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/kiss.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/moon.gif!

Re: Re: Too bad.
 

Again, your professionalism comes thru with flying colors.

T everyone, so you can prove your authoriaa!!!

Peace

I probably would fall into the no T group, unless there was something more that a late dunk. On unsporting Ts in first place games, check out

http://www.freep.com/sports/preps/plistx13_20030213.htm

You have to go to the last section of the article. People who attended the game tell me the writer is full of it, that the kid's actions weren't as bad as written and that no worthwhile official would have called a T.

Stan, this doesn't really have anything to do with unsporting behavior. Persoanlly, I don't see how it's any different than a player grabbing the rim for no reason or dunking during pregame. It's the same rule. Should we ignore those infractions as well?

I think all we'll ever prove here, is that "unsporting conduct" will always be a judgement call. Sometimes the judgment is easily arrived at, sometimes it's not.

We've also proved that JRutledge and Bktbllref won't be going out for beers anytime soon.

Yesterday I stayed to watch the men's game.
Two seconds after the whistle, another player took a jump shot.
I found it offensive, but it was one of those problems that was better off ignored.

Yesterday I stayed to watch the men's game.
Two seconds after the whistle, another player took a jump shot.
I found it offensive, but it was one of those problems that was better off ignored. [/B][/QUOTE]Many years ago(and I'll be damned if I remember exactly how many),there were rules prohibiting players from taking practice shots at any time except before the game and at half-time.Penalty was a T-with no warning.They even had casebook plays detailing that players couldn't shoot after a whistle,take a practice FT,warm-up on a side basket,etc. Another one that went the way of the Dodo bird(similar to me,cttoi).

Question: Was A1 dribbling when he was fouled by B1? If A1 was dribbling then he was not fouled in the act of shooting.

BUT, if A1 was not dribbling when B1 fouled him, then the official has to decide if A1 was in the act of shooting.

The key to this play is whether A1 was in the act of shooting or was dribbling when he was fouled by B1.

That question is not answered in the original posting.

For the sake of discussion, lets assume that A1 was dribbling toward the basket and prior to being fouled by B1, A1 stopped his dribble by grabbing the ball with both hands and both of his feet were off the floor. What can A1 do with his feet from the point of his stopping his dribble? The rules (NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA) allow a player who stops his dribble or catches a pass with both of his feet off the floor to do the following:

a) Land simultaneously on both feet. Either foot can be A1's become his pivot foot.

b) Land on one foot, jump off it, and then land simultaneously on both feet. A1 cannot not have a pivot foot.

c) Land on one foot (his pivot foot), jump off it, land on his other foot (without touching the floor with his pivot foot), jump off it. A1 must now release the ball for a pass or a shoot before returning to the floor.

The rules references for the above is:

NFHS: R4-S43-A1, A2, A3, A4, and A5

NCAA: R4-S65-A1, A2, A3, A4, and A5

FIBA: R7-A38

If my assumption is correct about when A1 stopped his dribble, then A1 by rule is allowed to do what is described in (c) above. This means that A1 started the act of shooting when he stopped his dribble. And the continous motion rule allows him to finish his act of shooting.

See: NFHS R4-S12-A2, NCAA R4-S12-A1, or FIBA R6-A28.1.6.1 and A28.1.6.2.

Mark, what are you going on about?

A1 driving toward the basket on a fast break.
B1 whacks A1 across the mid-section.
C whistles the foul just before A1 crosses the FT line.
A1 takes two more dribble, jumps, and slams it home.

The foul was called, probably closer to the top of the circle and A1 continues to dribble. Whether the player was in the act of shooting is not in question. He continued to dribble after the foul. How could you possibly think he was in the act of shooting?

UhMark,I hate to do it to ya,but please read Tony's actual statement above. "A1 TAKES TWO MORE DRIBBLES" after the foul is called! It kinds blows your whole hypothesis t'hell,to be quite honest.

Thank you for answering my orginal question: Was A1 dribbling when he was fouled by B1? You just said he was.

In my post I was trying to expand the discussion to determine what would happen if A1 had ended his dribble before he was fouled by B1. Saying that A1 was driving toward his basket does not say whether A1 was dribbling the ball at the time he is driving toward his basket.

:rolleyes:

No, all I did was copy and paste the orginal post. But it was pretty clear there. :)

How does a player at the FT line drive to the basket without dribbling? :confused:

It doesn't matter. I stated that the foul was called and the player dribbled two more times. Now, what's your verdict, T or not?

DOH!!! I guess I have the prime requirments to be a sports official: blind in one eye and cannot see out of the other.

I am watching the Music Man on ABC as I have been reading the posts and I kept thinking STEPS instead of DRIBBLES.

I humbly apologize.

Fine!! Read it again and give us your call!! :D

JR, see 2-7-4, although there is no penalty mentioned.

It doesn't take more than a split second for a player on a fast break to get from the FT line to a dunk. Unless there was something unsporting about it, I'd probably find "reasonable doubt" that the player didn't hear the whistle or couldn't stop in time. Take a look at NCAA 10-3-13, AR6 and AR7. It's a supportable no call, and probably more readily accepted than a strict rulebook call.

I knew that was there,Chuck. Honestly!:D They used to actually list the different acts and penalties for them under Rule 10,but they took 'em out many moons ago.To be quite honest,when these came up in the distant past,there was a lot of warning and very little "T'ing going on.

I should've known that you knew that. After only a brief search, I found the thread where you and TH educated me on it. http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...?threadid=5300

Chuck

WOW!!
 

Chuck,your memory is better than an elephant's! Or a wooly mammoth's!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 17th, 2003 at 03:38 PM]

Actually, I think I just saw a wooly mammoth walk past my window! Look out, Dan. I think it's headed your way!

Chuck

NF not NCAA.

I think if you saw the play, you might be more likely to agree with the call. A1 was inside the FT semi-circle, prior to crossing the FT line when the whistle blew. It wasn't a petty foul, so I know he felt the contact. He took two more dribbles, did a jump stop went, up over B2 who was waiting to try a charge and dunked it.

It was pretty clear to me, but I posted since this is a play that I don't recall us discussing before.

It was pretty clear to me, but I posted since this is a play that I don't recall us discussing before. [/B][/QUOTE]Maybe Chuck the Wooly Mammoth will remember for us!
http://www.crystalinks.com/mammoth.gif
Hmmmmm! Snow ain't that bad!

Hey, if it pushes some of that snow out of my driveway I'll buy it dinner! :)

That's good. Just don't make it dinner!

Try getting that sucker on the bar-b-que!

I don't think I'll see my outdoor grill until about mid-May!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
Now that I know the dunk was over a defender, I'm leaning a bit more your way. The fact that it was an "in your face" dunk adds an element of poor sportmanship.

I understand it was a high school game, but the NCAA interpretations are helpful for this scenario.