Today vs. Virginia, Dook's Dahntay Jones planted a Spalding Sandwich right in the grill of a Virginia defender, a monstrous dunk. The UVa fella was whistled for a foul, as well. Then Jones, to show just how great the dunk was, proceeded to do a few push ups in the lane.

My question for the senior mugs is this: Does anyone consider this unsportsmanlike conduct? Would anyone have dinged Jones? Obviously, this would have been dinged in a high school game by everyone here, (I hope...) but what makes it different in the NCAA in this situation?

Don't get me started on Mr. Jones. He constantly taunts opponents, engages in cheap shots (E.g., Josh Howard in the WF game on Thurs. night), and overall, has a hot dog approach to everything in the game. One day, he'll "firetruck" with the wrong Marine and it''l be sad.

Ding him? Damn straight!

you ain't in the NBA yet, son....

W H A C K ! ! ! !

You guys are so uptight.
 

Can someone have fun. I thought it was spontaneous and fun. Lighten up. This is afterall a game. If you found it objectionable, talk to the kid and move on. I for one have not seen this before and was kind of funny. Sometimes I think all we want to do is show our authority. :rolleyes:

Peace

The biggest problem I had with it was the fact that Jones' legs were still on top of the defender when he was doing his pushups. So the pushups had the added effect of keeping the defender on the ground longer than necessary.
I'd have whacked him, but then again, I'm not doing college yet.

Rut brings up a good point, but it's always a fine line between fun and provoking the opposition, which could lead who-knows-where. I'd rather snuff out one match than sift through the charred remains of someone's house.

Ah, the exuberance of youth...

In the NBA, there would have been a technical.

I watched Miami/Dallas last night while eating dinner. First NBA game I saw in years -- the athleticism was amazing and the referees called two technicals in a few minutes.

It don't take much at that level. And the officials' heartbeat doesn't even quicken when they call one, either.

I saw the pushups live and I thought, "What a dunk." Then I thought, "Should be a technical."

And I don't call many, but that display was uncalled for.

Rich

Just wondering if any D1 college officials are reading this thread and would "T" this kid.Also I'm shocked that a coach like "K" would allow this.I think Bobby Knight must be shaking his after his protege let this happen.

Re: You guys are so uptight.
 

Authority has nothing to do with it. It's about sportsmanship and game management. It's also about keeping control of the game so it doesn't get out of hand later. This could lead to additional taunting and a fight later. Whack. In addition, I've seen it before so I <i> highly</i> doubt that it was spontaneous.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Feb 16th, 2003 at 11:00 AM]

Re: Re: You guys are so uptight.
 

It was about as spontaneous as pulling a pen out of your sock and autographing the ball after catching a TD pass! :D

Hey Z, I guess it's okay to block a shot and yell, "Get that **** outa here!" in Illinois as well. :(

Only Duke players can do this, nobody else -- it is the law in NC. :D

Take the stick out of your behind.
 

Why couldn't it been spontaneous? We see kids chest bump, jump in teammates arms, do fancy high five routines and I do not see anyone crying for a T then. Why now and not the other things that take place? This kid made a great play and did something that was right after the action. He did get knocked down and if I am not mistaken he was on his belly and started doing push ups. I agree this is something you do not see everyday, but it is not like he went to center court and did the push ups. He did this in the place he was knocked down. I will agree that it was not the most sportsmanlike act, but we do not T every act that does not feel right. The best thing to do would have been to talk to the kid if you had a problem. Not unless you see this again would I consider this to be staged. But I have never seen this before, so to suggest that it could not have been spontaneous is ridiculous. Considering all the situations here, this was very spontaneous. I guess when a kid dunks and yells, you are T'ing him up too? I hear them do this very often on TV and in HS games. I guess that just crosses the line too?

Peace

No one pulled anything out of their sock or pants.
 

I am probably sure, these were individuals from your neck of the woods than mine. I do not know too many ACC guys that live in my state or region of the country. So someone that probably has more ties to your "way of thinking" choose to pass on this. I am sure they used common sense and took the appropriate action. But since you are Tony the Tiger, they were wrong. Why don't the rest of us just throw out our experience and bow down to your wonderful philosophy? We are obviously not worthy.

BTW, the "Get that sh!t outta here" comment, is so old, we were saying that back in the 70s. That is not a new things. But you like giving Ts, so whatelse should we expect from you?

Peace

I'll save you the worry and tell you that I'm not even gonna reply to your stupidity. I could care less what you think.

Suuuurrreeee!!!!
 

Well you replied, so you must care. That is the logic you always tell me and others.

Peace

Re: You guys are so uptight.
 

You are absolutely correct, it is just a game. But what ever happened to sportsmanship. If that had been my son, he would have never gotten to shoot his free throw.

So my contribution to this thread is: W-H-A-C-K!!!

Re: Take the stick out of your behind.
 

To me, the unsporting part was that his legs (while doing the pushups) were on top of the defender. In the replays, you see the defensive player struggling to get up during the offending pushups.
If he just does the pushups, I let it go with a warning. But since he's doing them over top of the defender, I think a T is warranted.

Adam

I do not know too many D1 guys here.
 

I trust the judgement of the officials that were there. They did not seem to react in the way that most here (and I assume the most are not on that level that are commenting on) that have responded to the post. I think many of us are looking for something to penalize someone for. Unless there was something that took place, let it go. But then again, if you feel like this is something you have to go fishing for, the cast away.

Peace

From the latest NCAA Bulletin from the National Supervisor of Officials, Henry Nichols:

Dead-Ball Officiating. All three officials must constantly observe all ten players on dead balls, especially after violations and foul calls. This is a habit that officials must acquire so that it becomes second nature. This season officials have become lax on dead balls and too many incidents that should be addressed have gone unnoticed.

Maybe the D1 guys have some things to work on, too.

Not sure he was referring to situations like the one in question, but...

Who said they did not observe, they just did not react to the situation they way (folks that were not there) we reacted. We if any of us officiate in real life, we should realize that it is easy to officiate from the stands, then it is to officiate when you are there. I trust the judgement of the men that were there, rather than someone viewing something on a TV screen.

Peace

The men you are trusting are the same ones who let 6 players on the floor recently and have also been seen calling traveling on a throw-in. Just because they made D-1 doesn't make them infallible, nor does it make them off limits to discussion. From what I have seen, sportsmanship is much better on the high school level than it is at college levels. This is one example of things that get "let go" at the college level which would usually be penalized in high school. If you can't distinguish the difference between jumping high-gives and push-ups..... well, that speaks for itself. If after the push-ups, the player then did a little dance on the players stomach, would we still have a "stick up our butt" for calling a T? No wonder you think it's always the officials fault when a T is called.... you wouldn't know an unsportsmanlike act if it bit you on the butt.

Z

Don't get mad.
 

We could be talking about HS or middle school officials, they were there, you and I were not. I have always felt that judgement calls are better made by the officials that are doing the game. In my opinion, if I was watching the a game and you were on the floor, who the hell am I to be telling the people around me that I should have called something and I am sitting in the cheap seats? Well, we all were in the cheap seats. We did not earn the right to do that game and I think it is wrong and unprofessional for many who are not here to be making judgements on what is unsportsmanlike, when none of us were there to make that call. If you want to say this is what should have been done, then go to a camp and come here and defend every single situation that happens on your court, by a bunch of people that <b>will never sit in your shoes for one day.</b> I do not think anyone here has earned that right to start talking about what is unsportsmanlike at that level and what is not when you were not there. Easy to look at replay film and see it over and over again and say, "that should have been called."

If this is not the truth, do not ever get mad when when officiate a game or you know someone is officiating and some fellow official is ripping apart ever decision they make. Talking openly about "they missed this" or "they missed that." Or "I cannot believe they didn't called that."

The truth about this board is that the only thing that ties us together is that we claim to be officals. Does not mean we all take the thing we call professionalism to a higher plane. But then again, this is the internet.

Peace

We're not sitting in the cheap seats. The post asked posters here if doing push-ups, after a slam dunk, is unsportsmanlike. If that isn't taunting, I don't know what is. If you don't think is, then that's your opinion...it's just hard for me to believe that anyone wouldn't consider that unsportsmanlike. That could <b> definitely </b> lead to a fight. IMHO, if we don't draw the line at that, we might as well not even have a line. Implying that we can't discuss it because D-1 refs are involved is just plain dumb. I ref some of my NFHS games with D-1, D-2, and D-3 refs. They're just people, not gods... the only difference is that they don't mind the nomadic lifestyle during the winter as much as some of the rest of us. Doesn't sound like it was a "judgment call" in the sense that it "might have been a foul, might not have been a foul." A dunk happened and push-ups followed. I think very few people who saw that would pass on a T. Maybe the assignor for that conference punishes refs who give a T, even if it's well-deserved. That would be sad.

Z

I'm a referee. And a Duke alum. I thought he should have been whacked. At best, Jones's actions were a "look at what a great play I made" display. At worst, they constituted a taunt. Either way, the dunk spoke for itself; he didn't need to add anything. Instead, he took away from his spectacular athletic effort with his follow-up act.

jbduke, what do you think of Jones? I hear a lot of Duke fans comment about his poor conduct, much like Tar Heel fans used to talk about Wallace.

<b>If that isn't taunting, I don't know what is.</b>

If the question was asked, obviously it was not clear cut.

<b>If you don't think is, then that's your opinion...it's just hard for me to believe that anyone wouldn't consider that unsportsmanlike.</b>

Because when you are so self-absorbed in your own opinion, you cannot see the other side.

<b>That could <i> definitely </i> lead to a fight.</b>

Many things that we discuss here could lead to a fight. I do not see your post talking about how "it has got to be unsportsmanlike." I could see the "yelling" post as being a perfect example, but many here said that was OK.

<b>IMHO, if we don't draw the line at that, we might as well not even have a line.</b>

In your humble opinion. Did you forget what that means?


<b>Implying that we can't discuss it because D-1 refs are involved is just plain dumb.</b>

I am not saying you cannot discuss it. You can discuss anything you like. This is a free country and a free board. But for others to not take issue with your point of view is rather selfish from my point of view. The officials that were there did not do what you suggest. You have a right to see it another way, but I have the right to not agree with you.

<b>I ref some of my NFHS games with D-1, D-2, and D-3 refs. They're just people, not gods... the only difference is that they don't mind the nomadic lifestyle during the winter as much as some of the rest of us.</b>

There you go again, making a mountain out of a molehill. No one says anything about them being Gods. But I was not there (same attitude as I take at the HS levels) and reserve total judgement for the officials that "actually officiated the games." Can they make mistakes, they sure can, but to me this was not necessarily one of them. They made a judgement and I am sure there was a reason.

<b>Doesn't sound like it was a "judgment call" in the sense that it "might have been a foul, might not have been a foul."</b>

What is unsportsmanlike is no different that way is considered obscene. What is obscene to one person, is fun to another. This was totally a judgement call, if it was not then there would have been a T. They obviously passed on the act for some reason. I am sure there is debate amongs the folks that watched the game that have some direct interaction with officials.


<b>A dunk happened and push-ups followed. I think very few people who saw that would pass on a T.</b>

This is not about how many people agree or not disagree (at least for me it is not). I do not officiate and make calls based on a poll. I sure hope you do not either.

<b>Maybe the assignor for that conference punishes refs who give a T, even if it's well-deserved. That would be sad.</b>

Well I doubt that seriously. The fact of the matter is that I have never seen this and I am sure that many here have never seen this before. Which alone suggests to me that the act was totally spontaneous. If we start seeing this all over the place, then I would agree that maybe the act is to show up the opponents. But for you to suggest that there is only one way to handle this is rather ridicuolous. The officials passed and the folks here said they should have done something different. There seems to be a consensus that yelling is OK, but that is based on what we have seen in the past. If the NCAA wants to make this action unsportsmanlike, then they can put it in their tapes or discuss it in meetings. But as for what took place that night, it was <b>not unsportsmanlike in my opinion.</b> Doesn't mean I am right and it definitely does not mean that I am wrong either. It just means it is.

Peace

My high school coach won 378 games and lost only 122 in 21 years as a coach. He was also an OhioHSAA registered basketball official for all of those years.

Since we were a pretty successful high school basketball program we always had teams gunning for us. But the most important thing that I learned from him as well as my parents was to be humble in victory and gracious in defeat and it seems to me that too many athletes have forgotten that simple credo.

I know a D1 official who told me last year that he was brought in to a Christmas tournament that Duke played in so Coach "K" could check him out to see if he was good enough to do the final 4 if Duke made it there. I think the politics have alot to do with when and where certain calls are made. Maybe if this had been somewhere else this would have been called different. We might not like it but certain coaches have the power on who does their games.

Please correct me if i am wrong. Reading the thread, it would seem that the player who dunked the ball and was doing the pushups was at the time holding the defensive player down with his legs. If there was contact, how you can you give a technical. I have always been taught that a technical foul was a no contact foul

Contact during a dead ball can be a technical foul.

Hey J.R., it is a pity that we do not all referee to the same rules. I have always refereed by FIBA rules, and contact during dead-ball periods could be intentional or disqualifying as the ball is not then being played. Thanks for the info.

Sounds like the rules are fairly similar,Nick.Technical fouls here can also be classified as intentional or disqualifying,depending on the circumstances.

...But, largely, ignored unless intentional or flagrant....

Z, I agree with nearly everything you've written in this thread. But I don't think the "only" difference between me and a D1 official is that he/she doesn't mind the travel. Most D1 officials get to that level b/c of exceptional ability (although there are exceptions, of course).

Your comment is kind of like saying that the only difference between Paul Pierce and a local Boston HS player is that Pierce is available to play 82 games a year.

chuck

Chuck,

How about if I say that it is OFTEN the only difference? This is based on my own experience. In our local association, all of our top few officials are quite capable of doing college ball. Most of us have been asked to do so many times. All of those who have made the sacrifice of the additional time required (not just being gone from family all season, but also the "right" camps and the volunteer summer tournaments) have "made it." Personally, being away from my boy so many evenings just for high school ball is a big enough sacrifice... sometimes too much. More power to those who are able to work it into their lives without a negative influence on family life.

Z

Other methods
 

Ejection and Technical fouls are our biggest weapons. Sometimes we are reluctant to pull them out.

I didn't see the event but I do know there are other ways to take care of things besides giving a T-bone.

What was the response of the defender underneath the push-up dude? Maybe he was laughing. Was there an official close by? Perhaps he was talking with the players. Many things can be resolved and the taunting stopped without shooting a T.

Had a district game the other night. Kid came from behind on a breakaway lay-up made a terriffic block. The foul was called. He went to retreive the ball with the biggest sh!t eating grin... my comment to him was, "Man that was a great block. But don't smile too much your going to incite the other team to get you back. Just move on. It was a great block. Don't taunt the other players; just move on.

A T wasn't in order here .... yet... another couple of seconds of smiling and it could have been. Taunting ... confrontation.

Perhaps something similar occurred during the push-up game.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Feb 18th, 2003 at 02:37 PM]

DownTownTonyBrown,

See you got the point. You and I were not there. We do not know what happen afterwards or during, but what the replay showed. In the replay you did not see the reaction of all the players or the aftermath. And because we did not see this, I trust the judgement of the officials that actually officiated the game. I would feel the same if I was watching the game and saw everything live. I always trust the officials judgement on the floor first, then if I have any questions, I ask them personally. I do not know many that have asked them personally. They might have been just caught off guard by the situation and did not know what to do.

Peace

response to bktballref on DJones
 

I think that Jones brings a particular type of fire to the team that is badly needed. I'm not happy, however, with some of what comes with that. Throwing the ball off the face of an opponent on several occasions when falling out of bounds, baiting other players, these are things that I can do without, and which for the most part, the program has done without over the years.

As for the comparisons to Wallace, I don't like them, because it's not fair to either player. I'm certainly not crazy about Rasheed's conduct as a professional, but it's totally different from the things that Dahntay has been criticized for. Further, I don't remember ever seeing anything objectionable in Rasheed's behavior under Coach Smith. The guys from Carolina whose on-court I remember taking issue with are McInnis, Ndiaye, and King Rice, although Jones doesn't exactly fit into any of those profiles either. I think Dahntay's a really good kid who simply needs to be a little more selective with his aggressiveness.

I wasn't comparing the two players. I was simply comparing how Duke fans felt about Jones to how Carolina fans felt about Wallace.

Rasheed, too, brought a lot of fire to the program but he did some stupid things at inopportune times while in Chapel Hill. Now that he's no longer under the control of the "program," he's really made a name for himself.

I've got a T on this one. This is pure streetball and doesn't belong in a game. It is crap like this that drags the game and sportsmanship into the gutter.

I guess you have seen it.
 

I have seen a lot of street ball, I have never seen this at one of those games.

Peace

Reminds me of Laettner
 

I guess we shouldn't be too amazed that Coach K lets this stuff happen. After all, Christian Laettner did put his foot on the chest of a Kentucky player that was down on the floor during a regional championship game. In that case I don't remember the refs calling anything either, but maybe my memory has just slipped some.

Drama?
 

You are talking about things that happen almost 10 years apart. What does one have to do with the other in any way?

No, the refs did not call anything. I think they missed the actual act and saw the aftermath.

Peace

Re: Drama?
 

Duh...they are both deemed unsportsmanlike by about 99% of refs. :-)

Z

Hey Z, since it happened 10 years ago, Rut won't allow us to talk about it. ;)

I guess he has a statute of limitations! :D

I guess.
 

You did a poll? You have talked to every official and have gotten their opinion? What scientific method did you use? What is the margin of error in your poll?

Sometimes I think you think you know everyone on the planet that officials anything.

Peace

Re: I guess.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
You did a poll? You have talked to every official and have gotten their opinion? What scientific method did you use? What is the margin of error in your poll?

Yes, I hired Nielsen. Margin of error was +- 2%.


Sometimes I think you think you know everyone on the planet that officials anything.


Geez Rut, I'm blushing. I may seem omnipresent, but I don't actually know everyone... there are a couple of officials in South Dakota that I haven't met yet.... but I'm working a WWF grudge match with them next week.

Z