An article in the local Newspaper
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/preps/..._molly11.shtml

The only reaction I have is the part where the idiot says you probably need to have coached or played to be a successful official.

Arrogance at its highest.

Why is it we never say that one needs to have been an official to be a successful coach? I think if all coaches were forced to officiate for a year we would have no problems out of many of them.

I also like how the one coach wants to get in the evaluation process. Once again, I have never been asked to evaluate a coach's performance. I will listen to an evaluation, but it had better be from someone who has considerable training AS AN OFFICIAL.

Rich

Everybody wants good officiating, but nobody really expects to get it. It's kinda like being sick and hoping you get good tasting medicine, chances are it ain't gonna happen. Just hope that the medicine doesn't make you any sicker than you already were.*


*the above is an example of self-deprecating humor

I like the last point. I have seen many good officials and many bad officials, but I can honestly say that I have seen very, very few biased officials. And they don't last very long.

I have gone so far as to invite a fan (one that I know) who makes the claim "all the refs hate my team" to an out-of-town game where he really doesn't care who wins. The transformation is increadable. You begin to hear things like "you guys really can referee" or, more likely "I wish we could get a good officiating job like that at home".

The thing that poeple don't understand is that we are the only 2 (or 3) people in the building that really could care less who wins.

Blackhawk

I like the line, "This may surprise you coach, but officials get more training than coaches!"

In some cases, we see players go on to be officials, and I believe having a knowledge of the game and its ins-and-outs can be an asset to an official. But the blanket statement the coach made is ludicrous. Officiating is more than just being familiar with the game. It's being a people-person, being able to mediate, split-second critical thinking under unbelievable pressure, concentration, poise, and a special brand of integrity coaches may never understand.

We'd like to think that, but I doubt that it's true. A lot of them would just gain the inside knowledge they need to crank up their abuse and complaining to the next level!

Having said that, I've had countless players and coaches tell me they could NEVER do what we do.

<i>"but white players get charges more than black players. It's a hard call, but a slow white guy gets the call more than an athletic black kid."</i>

Statistics to back that up or just a wild claim? Any chance that athletic kids try to block shots instead of taking a charge? Whoo boy..... that's just moronic. Good thing he's a coach, because that chip on his shoulder wouldn't fit into most of the rooms that schools give us to dress in.

Z

That perception is not any different than any other bias. If you always have white officials on games where both teams are racially different, you are going to have those assumtions about the calls. Not any different than officials living in a town or a state when other differences appear by geography. I do not see you calling it moronic if someone was to officiate there old HS or school in the town that they live. If they do not want to give off the impression of bias, but a more racially diverse crew on games with schools that have racial difference. That to me is a perfect way to squash that perception. Then all he would be left with is the officials themselves.

Peace

Great, quotas for officials?

Rut, that is ridiculous. Should we not send black officials to rural towns that have little minority population? How about women working boys' games -- should that not happen either? Why send 50-year-olds to work these games -- I mean, aren't they way older than the players?

WE are not racists. The coach, who is looking for bias at every turn, is the racist. He is the one (along with the Sharptons and the Jacksons) who is driving a stake between the races for his own personal gain. Woe is me and my team. Waaaaah.

I lived in Seattle and officiated at some of these schools. That said, the comments made by some of these coaches do not surprise me in the least.

Why would you and why would the P-I give these people ANY credibility?

The truth is, basketball is the hardest of all the sports to call. And (excepting some of the coaches that take the time to learn --like some of the ones ones on this board) the yahoos that patrol the sidelines, in general, have no idea what it takes to call a game or what a well-called game is.

Last night my partner and I worked a girls' varsity game where the following coach activity happened:

(1) I called a player control foul on a girl who drove baseline leading with her arm. Call it a pet peeve of mine. Home coach doesn't like call and asks where the charge is on a clear-as-day block on the other end. He was serious, I think.

(2) Partner calls a PC foul at the other end. Same coach tells him that she hasn't committed an offensive foul all season, as if that has some relevance. Assistant then says that she hadn't committed one in three years. Partner turns as he's going by and mentions that, "Yes she has. Right there," and keeps on heading down the court. I don't blame him for not being able to resist.

(3) Girl fouls out with 0:10 left in the game, which is a 20-point blowout. Head coach insists he gets 60 seconds to replace player. I reminded him it was thirty seconds and started the clock. He kept trying to argue the point (it's hard to argue when the other person doesn't argue back), until I reminded him that he was almost out of time. This is the same guy who sincerely expected a held ball when his player whacked an opponent across the arms on a drive and kept the shooter from putting the ball up on a drive.

I believe most coaches are sincere, but they also look through some very thick rose-colored, very biased glasses. That so-called journalists don't immediately pick up on that and then lend these coaches credibility through a daily as widespread as the P-I bothers me.

Rich

Good post,Rich. Officials are blackandwhite! That's all,and 'nuff said!

In all the years I have played, coached, and simply watched basketball, I have never seen a referee call a game a particular way due to race issues, regardless the color of the official or teams involved. I have friends who have claimed racism at various times. Sadly, I think it shows poorly on my friends rather than the officials.

Now, having said all that, a coach is a fool if he doesn't point out to his players an official who has a "pet peeve", as one of the other posters mentioned. We regularly have an official who is a stickler for FT lane violations. We've had another ref who is very tight with travel calls. We tell players not to make violations, but to be especially careful with particular referees, with particular situations. Same concept as playing baseball with umpires who have "different" strike zones.

Good points. we have an official in one of our leagues that calls a lot of fouls in the post area, but only if you allow a post player to catch and turn. If you are working hard to deny the entry, he almost never calls anything. He has done it all season, and we pointed it out to our players before the very first game we played.

On Saturday, we had two post players foul out, and both complained about phantom fouls. At practice yesterday, I pointed out to them that we had discussed this all year. I then asked them could they have done anything to keep from getting the foul calls, and they both knew that denying the post entry was the answer.

Now granted, I always want us to deny entry, but this guys calls make it doubly important, and we almost lost a game by having my best two post players on the bench for the last couple of minutes. I think they learned a valuable lesson, and hopefully they will take it to heart this weekend.

Oh baloney. If you're going to play the race card, you'd better have some stats to back it up rather than to just throw out some silly claim that has absolutely no basis in fact.

Z

Two points that Floyd makes jump out at me. "a slow white guy gets the call more than an athletic black kid." What are we supposed to do with the athletic white kids and the slow black kids? How do we treat them? No different than the slow white kid and the athletic black kid. When it comes to calling a game, the only color that matters is the color of the uniforms.

"Things like the carry, the jump-stop travel, the hand check -- those slow down the athletic player," Floyd said. Those slow down every player. Why? Because they are violations of the rule and should be penalized accordingly.

One thing that makes me chuckle is when they talk about the amount of training, or lack thereof, officials receive. Officials in Seattle "attend a weekly two-hour session for eight to 10 weeks." That's 16-20 more hours of training than officials in Idaho receive. I'd feel much better about working with a first-year official I've never worked with if I knew they've had at least 16 hours of training under their belt.

I have had the "privelege" of watching the Garfield coach (the one who makes the racism claims)in a number of State tournaments...here is an actual conversation (as near as I can remember it) from my first time watching his team lose in a tourny game...I was sitting with several other officials...

"Well, Garfield loses another quarterfinal game. I give him 10 minutes,' says official #1.

"10? I give him 5," says #2.

"What are you taliking about?" I ask.

"In less than 10 minutes, we will walk over by the tournament office, and Floyd will be in there complaining about racist refs, " responds #1.

"Oh come on, " I said.

"Let's go," says #2...so we went over there, and sure enough, there he was doing exactly what they said...understand that his team had just lost by 13 points to the eventual State champions...I was back there the next two years in a row, and the exact same thing happened both times...when this guy loses, the refs are racist...those who are familiar with him are not surprised by his comments...he is a first class whiner...

I think that this article was not a slap at officials at all. It brings up some valid points about our chosen hobby. Which it is to most of us. It isn't our profession. I also agree with Rich that officials who didn't play the game can be good officials. As a former hockey player who thought basketball was for "sissies" my calls are based on the rules only. Not how I would have wanted it called when I was a player or how I used to get screwed on the same calls when I was playing. That said, I have had to work hard on trying to understand what the teams are trying to do. I never thought that was important when I started. But having a "feel for the game" is important. You don't have to have played the game, but you definitely learn by experience. I applaud the Washington State Association for mandatory classroom and on court experience before allowing new officials to blow a whistle. There are no such requirements in Minnesota. I also agree that most officials there are probably better trained than new coaches.

Seems like you are more offended by the accusation then dealing with the perception.
 

You like others do not even know what being racist is. It has nothing to do with just not liking someone of another race. It is a belief in superiority as a Race of People. Do not ever remember Sharpton or Jackson talking about how whites were racially inferior to Black people and saying whites did not deserve access to things that are Black. Even thought the one drop rule exsists still in this country and if a white person and a Black person have a child, 9 times out of 10 that child takes on more of the Racially Black features or skin tone than that of their white parent.

But having said that, if you want to take away the appearance of racial bias, schedule more officials of color on those games that have racial differences between the teams. If you want to erase all issues of racial impropriety or any impropriety, you should schedule officials that can be seperated from that issue. No different to me than not assigning 3 officials directly from one of the teams hometown. We can talk about that as an issue of bias and conflicts of interest, but we bring race into, everyone wants to run from this issue.

I live in a very racially segregated area. There are even suburbs where the teams are all-Black and the other team is all-white. I have been put on several of these games over the years and it always takes away the ammo from that argument. When you have 3 Black officials doing on an all-white, all-black game, you take away the preception that anything was decided on race. At least for the Black teams. And I would suspect that is not unusual anyway. I know around me, for some reason there were white and Black coaches that coach all-Black teams were complaining about the officials they were getting as it related to race. They wanted to see more Black officials on their games. And in many cases this was accomplished by hiring more African-American officials and this took away that argument of racial bias. It almost took that arugment completely away.

If you feel you are being wronged in this article, make some changes to give yourself and your association a chance to be viewed in a better light.

I can speak as an African-American official, that white coaches do not treat me the same as Black coaches. Not to suggest what you are thinking, but they do not behave the same towards me in any way. I wonder why that is? I am not alone in this assessment in my area. Many African-American officials feel the same way I do about this, because we have all had similar experiences. And when it is a racially diverse game, the dynamic chances greatly.

If you want to just pass it off as an incorrect statement, then you will be dealing with this over and over again. This coach obviously feels this way for some reason, it might have some merit, it might not. But you will never know if you act like an ostrich and put your head in the sand. Address the main concern, put more Blacks on his games. Maybe then he will not complain.

Peace

I have seen it and believe me it hurts. I'm not going to go into details about the particular game where I saw it, but I can tell you that I was not the only one who thought racism was an issue. It has been well documented. The pain still rumbles around in my stomach. I have the most tremendous admiration for people who really do suffer under racist situations and manage to rise anyway. I don't think I have the strentgh of character to rise above it. But the coach who lost that game, gave the most amazing locker room talk afterwards. It was to the effect that the girls had to keep their chins up, and let the world know that they were better people than those refs. They must play tomorrow as though they had won this one, and then everyone would see the rights and wrongs of the situation. Most of all, they must not see themselves as less, simply because a couple of guys who didn't know them thought they were less.

Racism is alive and well in all parts of the U.S. and continues to affect people. Does that mean the Seattle coach was right that his team is being hurt by it? Not necessarily. But even if he is right, the only response that works is to play so well, so clean, so legalistically correctly, that the refs absolutely cannot call anything. Whining about it just simply doesn't help.

Have to agree with Rutledge
 

Not that it happens too frequently...

This seems a relatively simple solution to a problem that most likely does not exist. It does however change the perception of those making accusations.

I don't advocate using skin tint as a determining factor in assignments etc., but in an area like Seattle or other big cities it should not be too difficult to have a "mixed" crew officiate games where there exists a possible problem. This doesn't have to happen all the time, but when possible why not defuse the situation before it happens.

I didn't get the same message from Rut's suggestion that others did. Rut appeared to say the same things others were: Officials are unbiased, problem is most likely in coaches perception, it shouldn't make a difference who calls a game... Rut only mentions an easy solution.

Don't assignors do this anyway? For instance, if two teams are going to run fast breaks the entire game, doesn't the assignor make sure that he's got guys that can handle the running there? A big girls game doesn't call for a misogynist like Rut. No big deal anywhere.

If you do not know anything about me, do not run your mouth.
 

A misogynist? I am one of the biggest egalitarians on this board or anywhere. I believe in equality for all, not just for a few. I also have no problem with Women advancing in Women's baskeball, because the officials should reflect the players and coaches on the floor. There are many male officials that look down on girl's basketball and should not be there regardless of gender. That is why I have always advocated Women's advancement at the higher ranks and do not take the game the position that many take of "qualifications" as an issue.

To call me a misogynist when my education background and my every day practices do not suggest such. Choosing a side to officiate has nothing to do with being against women, it has to do with. That is why it is funny that a Black Conference gave a Women a chance to do the Men's NCAA Tournament. I supported that action all the way.

Peace

Re: If you do not know anything about me, do not run your mouth.
 

Easy Rut!

Take a second and relax. Breathe deeply.

No offense was intended, but unfortunately taken.

Yes "misogynist" was a bit of hyperbole. I figured you and others would understand that is referred to your antipathy toward officiating women's games.

If you would read the rest of the note, you would see that it supports what you suggested.

On another note, your aversion to the label "misogynist" strikes me as similar to most folks reticence to accept the label "racist".

Anyway, I could make many comments on the similarities, but don't feel this is the appropriate avenue to pursue them. I will sum up my position of the previous post, though (omitting references to misogyny):

Sometimes there is a perceived problem. If there is a simple solution, do it. Don't make mountains out of molehills.

Relax.

Re: Re: If you do not know anything about me, do not run your mouth.
 

<b>Easy Rut!

Take a second and relax. Breathe deeply.

No offense was intended, but unfortunately taken.</b>

Who said anything about being uptight. I just said you did not know what you were talking about. Take it or leave it. If you preceive it as anything else, that is not my issue.

<b>Yes "misogynist" was a bit of hyperbole. I figured you and others would understand that is referred to your antipathy toward officiating women's games.</b>

Saying that someone perfers a particular level and calling it misogynistic, is a bit much. Basically when I did not grow up in an age of the WNBA and even Women's Basketball being on TV, I did not imagine myself doing or excelling at that level. I also live in an area where it required for officials to choose one over the other. I work for several assignors or AD that do not even ask me to do girl's basketball. You want to know the truth, it is the Men that are involved that do not make it fun. Officials that are older than dirt, coaches that think girls are fragile beings and the fathers that cannot believe that their daughter can get knocked down without a foul being called. But I guess that means I hate men now?

<b>If you would read the rest of the note, you would see that it supports what you suggested.</b>

You see I was critical of what I needed to be. I was not taking issue with the other parts of your posts that I commented on.

<b>On another note, your aversion to the label "misogynist" strikes me as similar to most folks reticence to accept the label "racist".</b>

Well the are not the same thing. I do not know if you would accuse women as "Men haters" because they said they never wanted to do Boy's basketball? It never becomes an issue. I wonder why?

<b>Anyway, I could make many comments on the similarities, but don't feel this is the appropriate avenue to pursue them. I will sum up my position of the previous post, though (omitting references to misogyny):</b>

How nice of you.

<b>Sometimes there is a perceived problem. If there is a simple solution, do it. Don't make mountains out of molehills.

Relax.</b>

I took your comments and called you on it. This is not something I am going to lose sleep over. Do not flatter yourself. :rolleyes:

Peace

As a new member to the board, I questioned whether or not to post on this topic as it is a very sensitive subject. In most cases I agree with JRut. I don't believe there is anything wrong with considering crew mix. It happens all the time whether we like it or not. I know for a fact that race of an official is taken into consideration. In fact in one predominately Black NCAA conference they are going the other way. Hiring more Whites cuz most of the staff at this point is Black. I think if you have a predominately Black school against a predominately White school it is probably beneficial (notice I did't say necessary) to have a mix. Not all Black, not all White. It would elinate for the most part this conception, be real or imagined

As rainmaker said. Racisim is everywhere and only the "mentally bigger" people will overcome it. I also consider myself an egalitarian and have no time for racist views. In fact part of my job is to address them if they surface in the workplace.

JRut-I do have a question though (and please do not take this out of context. My formal education is in the field of Psychology and I noticed one thing in your earlier post. When your referenced Black coaches/teams/officials you always capitalized the word Black. However, when you refereced White coaches/team/officials the word White was lower case. Is this a bit Freudian? Is there a message there ;). Again, don't take this seriously. I am just poking!!!

Yours in Basketball

I have a Sociological background.
 

That is done on purpose. "Black" is used to describe a race or ethnicity of people in Sociological terms. "White" is not. So when I say a white coach, it does not classify the same as used for races as Jewish or Anglo-saxon would. That is the reason for the capitalization of Black as compared to white.

Peace

JRut,

Point well taken and I figured that's what you meant all along (You know us Psychs, always trying to find the hidden meaning!). I was just poking and trying to add a little humor and leavity to a thread that has taken a turn for the worse. Not many topics I like worse than racism. Not that I try to pretend it doesn't exist or affect people everyday, its just that I would rather spend my time and efforts talking about more positive issues. :)

Yours in Basketball

Should be discussed.
 

I am just the opposite, I love discussing it. If people are honest with themselves, we might all learn something. And if the interjection of race did that here, that is always a good thing. And if this is seen as any other bias that is out there, you might find a better solution to this and many other problems.

Peace