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-   -   Can You Do What's Right ?? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/7356-can-you-do-whats-right.html)

APHP Thu Feb 06, 2003 01:51pm

This is simular to a post I made a year or so ago. Since so many more officials are now on board, I thought it may be worth repeating.

Finals of the State Championship Game. This is your first State Championship and you are U2. Team A has the ball when they call timeout in front of their bench. There are 6-seconds left in the game and team A is trailing by one point. You are the lead and the Referee, who has 11 State Championships under his belt is center-opposite table. During the timeout, the Referee assures U1 & U2 that he has the clock. On the ensuing throw-in by team A, several quick passes are made, then A2 puts up a shot with 3-seconds remaining in the game. The try is unsuccessful. All ten players are batteling for the rebound. Several players from both teams tap/tip/bat the ball which is bounding up and down and around the basket, with no one able to control the rebound. "YOU CLEARLY SEE" (you are 100% sure) B1 (on strong side-opposite center) in an attempt to rebound the ball, taps the ball upwards and is the last player to touch/tap/tip the ball just before the horns sounds to end the game. The ball enters the basket. The Referee signals "count goal". Fans, coaches, cheerleaders and players from team A rush onto to the court in jubilant celebration. The court is a crazy house. Coaches from team B have their heads down between their knees in obivous despair. Some of the players from team B fall to the floor in disbelief. Team B cheerleaders are crying. You frantically fight through the crowd looking for your partners, especially the Referee. You catch a glimpse of the Referee and U1 as they exit the door. What do you do now? No-better yet-what will you do if this happens to you.

w_sohl Thu Feb 06, 2003 02:11pm

Well, it is obvious that because the defense tipped the ball that as soon as the horn sounded the ball was dead and the basket cannot be awarded unless it went through before the horn sounded (I am assuming that you are indicated the horn sounded first). I would hope that by the time I am doing a state finals game that I would be able to go over to my partner and tell him what I saw and hopefully he would do the right thing. It is his call to change and I would let him know that I was 100% without a doubt sure that it was the defense that tipped the ball. After that it is up to him to do the right thing.

Jeff the Ref Thu Feb 06, 2003 02:11pm

Are you saying that we have no try!

A Pennsylvania Coach Thu Feb 06, 2003 02:22pm

I'm having trouble understanding what the alternate answers are to your question. I know often we get situations on this board where there are two choices: 1) the letter of the rule book or 2) the spirit of the rule. These always lead to interesting discussions with most reasonable people at least able to see both sides of it, even if they strongly believe in one or the other.

But in your scenario, it seems to me there is one option only. Stay on the court, send an administrator in to get your partners, tell them what you saw, and then go to the table and coaches and give them your ruling (yes, I think it'd be your call and not the R's) and watch the building erupt as your sprint away. (Okay, maybe before the ruling, find some security personnel.)

See, I can't understand the reasoning behind anyone taking a pass on this. Team A didn't earn the win, they didn't deserve to win, there is no logic for them to be awarded the win. Team B got the stop they needed, they earned the state title, and you know it. What could possibly be the line of thinking for not getting the call right?

Even from a personal level, maybe you don't want to be known as the guy who "stole" the championship or whatever. But for the rest of your life you'd have to live with the fact that the wrong team left with the trophy and it was your fault. I have to believe that as an impartial official, this would eat away at you.

MN 3 Sport Ref Thu Feb 06, 2003 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff the Ref
Are you saying that we have no try!
B was the last to tip the ball. Their 'tap" or a better word de is not a try, does the ball not become dead immediately when the horn sounds.

However I bet you could make a pretty good case that A touched the ball near the same time and then B deflected it therefore the ball is not dead because B's touch is part of A's try. Definately either way it would take a lot of fortitude to make the call. i would definately have to be there in that sitch to decide my course of action.

stewcall Thu Feb 06, 2003 02:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
I'm having trouble understanding what the alternate answers are to your question. I know often we get situations on this board where there are two choices: 1) the letter of the rule book or 2) the spirit of the rule. These always lead to interesting discussions with most reasonable people at least able to see both sides of it, even if they strongly believe in one or the other.

But in your scenario, it seems to me there is one option only. Stay on the court, send an administrator in to get your partners, tell them what you saw, and then go to the table and coaches and give them your ruling (yes, I think it'd be your call and not the R's) and watch the building erupt as your sprint away. (Okay, maybe before the ruling, find some security personnel.)

See, I can't understand the reasoning behind anyone taking a pass on this. Team A didn't earn the win, they didn't deserve to win, there is no logic for them to be awarded the win. Team B got the stop they needed, they earned the state title, and you know it. What could possibly be the line of thinking for not getting the call right?

Even from a personal level, maybe you don't want to be known as the guy who "stole" the championship or whatever. But for the rest of your life you'd have to live with the fact that the wrong team left with the trophy and it was your fault. I have to believe that as an impartial official, this would eat away at you.

I agree with the coach EXCEPT it is the R call(this was agreed upon by being the C opposite the table) As the U1 your duty is to report the information BEFORE you leave the court- once you leave (all of you) it is too late by rule!
So give the R the info before you leave the court. Let the R make the call.
You as the U have nothing to loose sleep over. You call your area- give information to partners and live with the crews decision. Let's face it 2 people can see the same thing and report it differently -be it angles- emotions- bad eyesight or a brain fart
Stew

A Pennsylvania Coach Thu Feb 06, 2003 02:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by stewcall


I agree with the coach EXCEPT it is the R call(this was agreed upon by being the C opposite the table) As the U1 your duty is to report the information BEFORE you leave the court- once you leave (all of you) it is too late by rule!
So give the R the info before you leave the court. Let the R make the call.
You as the U have nothing to loose sleep over. You call your area- give information to partners and live with the crews decision. Let's face it 2 people can see the same thing and report it differently -be it angles- emotions- bad eyesight or a brain fart
Stew

It is up to the C to determine if a last-second try beats the buzzer. But the play was in the L's area (the original post said "on strong-side opposite center"). So if L agreed it was a try, it's the C's call, but if it wasn't a try, (as determined by the L as the action was in the L's area) then there is nothing for the C to rule on. I still think (I can't back it up) that this is the L's call. Get the partners back out on the floor without leaving yourself, tell them what you have, and take care of business.

Viking32 Thu Feb 06, 2003 02:38pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stewcall
Quote:

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
I agree with the coach EXCEPT it is the R call(this was agreed upon by being the C opposite the table) As the U1 your duty is to report the information BEFORE you leave the court- once you leave (all of you) it is too late by rule!
So give the R the info before you leave the court. Let the R make the call.
You as the U have nothing to loose sleep over. You call your area- give information to partners and live with the crews decision. Let's face it 2 people can see the same thing and report it differently -be it angles- emotions- bad eyesight or a brain fart
Stew
Agreed that it is R's call to change after U's information is given to him. My question is, what was the conversation like in the locker room once you got down there. Did you discuss the situation with your partner's and/or your supervisor? What was the results of those talks?

MN BB Ref Thu Feb 06, 2003 02:43pm

I agree with both PA Coach and stewcall here as they are both correct. The R does have responsibility for ensuring that the shot was before the expiration of time. The L has the responsibility for determining if the shot was by Team A.

In this case the shot was before the buzzer but not a legal shot. It is L's responsibility to stay on the court and have the officiating crew retrieved. He/she then has to tell the R what he/she saw transpire and ultimately it is the R's decision to make as that is the responsibility of the R. He/she is the final authority on all matters of rule interpretation and disputes on the court. He/she can elect to change the call or keep it. In either case L will be able to sleep at night because he/she did the right thing.

Dan_ref Thu Feb 06, 2003 02:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
Quote:

Originally posted by stewcall


I agree with the coach EXCEPT it is the R call(this was agreed upon by being the C opposite the table) As the U1 your duty is to report the information BEFORE you leave the court- once you leave (all of you) it is too late by rule!
So give the R the info before you leave the court. Let the R make the call.
You as the U have nothing to loose sleep over. You call your area- give information to partners and live with the crews decision. Let's face it 2 people can see the same thing and report it differently -be it angles- emotions- bad eyesight or a brain fart
Stew

It is up to the C to determine if a last-second try beats the buzzer. But the play was in the L's area (the original post said "on strong-side opposite center"). So if L agreed it was a try, it's the C's call, but if it wasn't a try, (as determined by the L as the action was in the L's area) then there is nothing for the C to rule on. I still think (I can't back it up) that this is the L's call. Get the partners back out on the floor without leaving yourself, tell them what you have, and take care of business.

Unless there was prior agreement this is the C's call because he's opposite the table. Of course anyone can offer information that might influence him to change the call, but he made the call & he owns it. Generally in the case of a disagreement, or no evidence to support a ruling (time back on clock, for instance?) the R has the final say. In this case the L goes to the C (who happens to also be the R) with new information but he cannot over rule the C. If the C left the floor the L needs to get him back to discuss. If the C was right the L owes him a lifetime of gratitude.

Dubby Thu Feb 06, 2003 02:57pm

I agree that it's the R's call to determine if the ball was released in time but it's not the R's duty to determine if it was a shot in the first place. This is no more his responsibility than if there was a foul on the play in front of L. At this point they need to get together and discuss the whole play.

[Edited by Dubby on Feb 6th, 2003 at 01:59 PM]

Mregor Thu Feb 06, 2003 04:00pm

If memory serves me right, maybe the MN refs can answer, a play such as this happened in MN (might have been ND) a few years back. It was different in that B secured the rebound with a few seconds left, threw the ball high into the air, buzzer sounded, went in A's basket. A team went nuts and B player that threw the ball was deeply upset. Officials got it right and waived it off.

Mregor

Viking32 Thu Feb 06, 2003 04:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mregor
If memory serves me right, maybe the MN refs can answer, a play such as this happened in MN (might have been ND) a few years back. It was different in that B secured the rebound with a few seconds left, threw the ball high into the air, buzzer sounded, went in A's basket. A team went nuts and B player that threw the ball was deeply upset. Officials got it right and waived it off.

Mregor

I live on the MN/ND border and don't recall a play like that. I could be wrong, but it doesn't ring a bell to me.

Jurassic Referee Thu Feb 06, 2003 04:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dubby
I agree that it's the R's call to determine if the ball was released in time but it's not the R's duty to determine if it was a shot in the first place. This is no more his responsibility than if there was a foul on the play in front of L. At this point they need to get together and discuss the whole play.


They do need to discuss it,but it definitely is the R's duty to determine if it was a shot if they then disagree.He gets the final decision.Just wanted to make that clear.

Dubby Thu Feb 06, 2003 04:32pm

I have to disagree. It's the R's duty to take all the information into account, apply the rules and make a decision based on that rule. But it is L's (in this case U2) job to say if it was or wasn't a shot. R may be able to 'over rule' him but he shouldn't. He needs to trust his partner.


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