I'd like some advice from a few experienced officials about a situation I had this season.

I am a first year official, and this happened in my first junior high girls game. I was excited, yet nervous. Low and behold, the person that I got teamed up with was also a 1st year official, and this was his first game at any level. My first jr. high game and I am the senior official...lol
(i had done games at other levels)

Anyway, I'll get to the point. The scorekeeper for the home team was also a varsity official. Game is going real well. No problems, complaints, etc...

Ball goes out of bounds @ half court. I am lead, under basket. Partner is at half court with the ball. Home team subs in a player. I motion the player in and am now waiting for play to begin. My partner is literally an inch away from handing the team the ball to begin play and I hear a horn from the scorekeeper. I look to the table, and notice that Home team wants to sub another player. I put my hand up, and tell the table and the coach to wait until the next dead ball because my partner was beginning play. I give the 'thumbs up' to my partner and partner begins to give the team the ball to begin play...again. HORN again!! Scorekeeper (keep in mind, varsity official) says that I am wrong and that I should allow the sub. My partner says (in the scorekeepers direction, from across the court) "Well, I didn't give her the ball yet." So, I submit, and allow the sub to come in. At this point I am FUMING!!!

The next time out, I go to the table and tell the scorekeeper to NEVER do that again. He again says that I was wrong, and I tell him that I don't care if I was wrong or not. That I won't put up with being 'one-upped' by a scorekeeper, whether the scorekeeper is an official or not. I also tell him that I don't think he'd appreciate the scorekeeper arguing with him if he was in my situation. In the locker room, I tell my partner that if he wants to discuss a situation, that he can talk to me privately, not announce to the gym that he agrees with the scorekeeper.

First of all, did I do the right thing? Home team had already subbed, and my partner was literally an inch away from handing off the ball.

Second, should I have said anything to the scorekeeper/varsity official? I felt that it was better to stick up for myself than to kiss his a$$. He did tell me after I 'yelled' at him, that he was sorry and it wouldnt' happen again. But I don't know if I burned a bridge.

Why is a varsity official running the clock for a JR High game?

because
 

he is involved with the school somehow. maybe a parent or a teacher. i'm not sure.

My understanding is that if a player is not "at the table" when you're ready to give the ball to the inbounder, sub has to wait.
However, in a JH game, I'd probably have let the sub come in. If it gets to be a pattern, however, I'd let the coach know that you're gonna go by the book after that.
I've never had a coach complain about me not letting the subs in in a situation like that. Just teaches them to get their players in quicker.
Sometimes, they want to wait til the next dead ball anyway.

snaqs

J,

"By the book", you were right. If the ball is about to be live, then you do not have to recognize the horn. However, most officials that I know are fairly lenient when it comes to allowing subs. As long as we don't feel that a coach is trying to delay to give his team some rest, then many of us will let the sub in; even if the ball is "almost" live.

Having said that, once you tell the subs that they will not be allowed in, the scorekeeper should not have buzzed again. I would also remind the scorekeeper that the official allows the subs to enter; not the timer. But I would do this very delicately, especially if I know that the timer is in a postition to observe/rate me. I hope that you didn't burn bridges, but that probably has as much to do with the timer's personality as it does with what you said to him.

As to your partner, it was his first game. He doesn't want to make waves, and he might not even really know what the proper thing to do is. I hope you were not too hard on him in your post-game talk. It's really hard for me to get upset with a first year guy unless he clearly just doesn't give a rip.

Just my two cents. Hope something in there is helpful.

Chuck

never got a complaint from the coach
 

coach was quiet the whole time. the scorekeeper was the one with the 'issue'. that's part of the reason that it got me so mad...

I'm amazed that you got the players to wait at the reporting area until beckoned in at that level! As you progress you'll notice that not only do the abilities of the players get better, so does the coaching. At JH level, most coaches know very little about the game much less the rules. As you progress you will also learn what battles are worth fighting. This is not one of them. The big difference between a veteran and a rookie isn't the rule knowledge, it's knowing how/when to enforce them. Don't spend too much time worrying about subs, shirts tucked, etc. Don't you have enough to worry about like which foot is the pivot, does the defender have legal position, who's the shooter, etc.? If you look for problems, you'll be sure to find them, but then all you do is rethink the situation over and over in your mind all the way home and while trying to sleep at night. Every game is a learning experience. Treat it as such. Knowing that, what will you do the next time? I'd let them in. Now if it continues and needlessly delays the game, make it known to both coaches that all subs must be ready or they'll wait until the next opportunity to sub. As for the varsity official at the table, he should know better. If he has a power trip going when he's the scorer, he must be a real joy when he's working. I'd have some smart@ss comment for him, but hey, that's me. Try going to one of his games and be the "Fan from Hell" and see how he likes it.

Mregor

J,

How did you feel about the game? Was there a good flow? Did you have good communication with your partner? Most of all did you have fun?

My advice in this situation is not to worry about this or try to "prove" yourself in this point. I don't think the scorekeeper should have buzzed you a second time, but if your partner wanted to bring in the sub, he is entitled. You mentioned that, "In the locker room, I tell my partner that if he wants to discuss a situation, that he can talk to me privately, not announce to the gym that he agrees with the scorekeeper.", I don't feel like your partner was trying to show you up in this situation. It wasn't like he was arguing with you about a call or OOB situation.

And remember to add this to your pregame so it doesn't happen again.

Cheers!!

It was a very good game. good flow, great communication.

I'd like to make one thing clear, though. I certainly don't spend my time worrying about subs, shirts tucked in, etc... and, when this situation arose, I wasn't trying to be a hard a$$ or anything like that. It was a split second reaction to a situation. partner about to inbound the ball, horn blows. my split second decision was to wait until the next dead ball. i never envisioned that the scorekeeper would buzz again. that's where it got heated (in my head).

as far as my partner goes, I didn't give him a hard time, and I certainly didn't yell at him. I just told him in those situations, to talk to your partner privately, so we can both come to a conclusion.


and, dhodges, i had already told the team to wait for the next dead ball. i didn't 'overrule' my partner. it upset me that he 'agreed' with the scorekeeper, as opposed to walking over to me and discussing the situation.

what it ALL boils down to is that whether I should have or shouldn't have let the sub in, I made a split second decision. a decision that i still feel is the right one. the scorekeeper had NO right to escalate the matter.

PLEASE don't actually do this. It will only serve to make YOU look like (and be) an a$$. Last week I had a Middle School double header with a veteran (15 yrs?) partner. During the boys game a father in the stands loudly officiated the game from the stands. We just ignored him because he was not saying anything personal, plus we had enough to worry about with two scrappy teams. He kept yelling "3 seconds." "that's a travel," "over the back," yada, yada, yada. At half time I asked my partner what was up with the big mouth father. The scorekeeper had just told him that the guy recently passed the test and is a member of our board! He flunked the "class" test.

He probably should have flunked the ethics test, too.

jtarantine,
New officials, I for one, are often very firm on the rule book.
Allow yourself a little freedom of interpretation in the interests of a pleasant experience for you, the teams and the fans.
Though all the rules matter, some matter a little less.
Good luck.
mick

point taken.

Actually, I think what it all boils down to is how you dealt with the situation...let the subs in, don't let the subs in - that's your decision and you handled it...the problem comes in when you dealt with the guy on the horn...was he wrong - of course, and he knew it...should you go over there and get in a "heated" discussion with him? Nope...a simple tweet of the whistle and "Partner, let's put it in play" and off we go...later, go over and talk quietly and politely with the table crew and explain why you don't want that horn going off like that...getting mad in that situation helps no one, especially yourself...

Here's what you said: Nope...a simple tweet of the whistle and "Partner, let's put it in play" and off we go...later, go over and talk quietly and politely with the table crew and explain why you don't want that horn going off like that...getting mad in that situation helps no one, especially yourself...

excuse me...but maybe you should read my entire post. after the first horn, i DID tweet my whistle and motion my partner to put it in play. if was after he buzzed me AGAIN, that this situation arose. and, if you once again would read my entire post, i DID wait until a time out to talk to the table crew and explained that i didn't want the horn to go off... so, i did EXACTLY what you just suggested that i "should have done"

and, i couldn't help it that i got mad, but NO ONE knew that i was mad but myself (and perhaps the scorekeeper, who in fact, did apologize)

Geez...I did read your entire post...the point of my post was to get you to realize that "yelling" (your words, not mine) is not the best way to deal with the situation...I certainly did not mean to sound like I was criticizing you...but hey, if you wanna get defensive, go ahead - sounds like that's what you did in the original situation also...so be it...

Don't sweat this too much.

It may have been wrong for the varsity guy to override you from the scorer's table, but it's not worth getting in a lather about.

As for your partner, I agree with some of the others, it was his first game.

This sounds like it was bang-bang, and in JH ball, let the subs in. It's just good game management.

Hint to your partner: as you are about to hand the ball to the player, have one last glance at table to check for subs. Avoids these irritating situations.

dj,

Rookies..., eh?
Try to tell 'em sumthin'... :rolleyes:

mick

There's a 100% chance they'll hear ya and a 75% chance they're listening.

I know, mick...I know...sigh...:)

thanks for the 'rookie' comments. makes me feel really comfortable on this board. i was only defensive because you basically scolded me, telling me to do what in actuality i DID....

veterens, eh?

there's a 75% chance that they'll hear ya and a 100% chance that it doesn't matter what you say because they know it all...

yeah but...i know but...i hear ya but...

truce
 

either way... it's good to hear your comments. i'm definitely learning from them, and i mean that.

2 words: Lighten up. By the letter of the law you are right and you know it, but put this in perspective. If this is the worst problem you have with a scorekeeper, consider yourself truly blessed. Some routinely hit the horn after you hand the player the ball, not to mention that many players of all ages treat the horn as a green light and sprint onto the court. The horn interrupts the flow, whether it was sounded at the proper time or not, so in this case, in a jr. high game, I let the sub come in, sometimes even when it means taking the ball out of the hands of the player. Call it the path of least resistance. It is sometimes easier to stray slightly from the proper path than it is to illuminate the path for people who live in total darkness.

2 words: Lighten up. By the letter of the law you are right and you know it, but put this in perspective. If this is the worst problem you have with a scorekeeper, consider yourself truly blessed. [/B][/QUOTE]


My favorite scorer error is when you report a foul and ask if we are in bonus and they reply no. Then on the next fould they tell you it is #8. :o Of course when you pregame them, they are all "I've done this for years" and ignore everything you tell them. :mad:

Mregor

Freshman boys game Saturday, scorer was miffed that we announed a 1 & 1 without her saying so. First, she said no, it's not. Then we questioned her because the scoreboard said the team had 6 fouls prior to the one called. She gave in, and partner heard her mutter under her breath, "But I didn't tell her it was the bonus." We laughed.

Hey, Rook,
There ain't a writer on this board that knows it all.
There ain't a writer on this board that'll back down from a legitimate discussion.
There ain't a writer on this board that wont' bust you and me just for the fun of it. ...And when we get busted, we'll probably have learned something. It doesn't even hurt all that bad.
The more you are here, the more you will know.
This is your first year!
We've all had a first year!
Hang in and hold on. ;)
mick

Not according to your original post...you said you "submitted" and allowed the sub in - I said you should have hit your whistle and said "Let's play"...you said after "yelling" at the scorekeeper, he apologized - I said you should have discussed it calmly...so as Dan pointed out, it's the "Ya but" syndrome...I'm sorry if I offended you, it was certainly not meant to...

A better temprament comes with doing more games (experence).

Because up until now you have not read between the line, I'll be a little more blunt.

Cool it! You're taking it too seriously. Let them into the game- laugh it off and realize it is part of working Jr. High. Sometimes we all know the rules but how to enforce them is what makes good officials.

Trust me (because I'm still there) relax and enjoy the game. I was the same way on the softball fields. If there was a minor infraction or a way to enforce a little know rule I was right there to do it. Then I started doing men's fast pitch. In three years I have yet to see a legally throw pitch not to mention all of the other violations. Some are important and most are not. I have now umped two ASA National Tournaments and am a better official.

Water rolling off a duck's back!

And what's the big deal about just letting the sub in? If the ball isn't in the hands of the thrower-in, I *want* the scorer hitting the horn.

Unless a team is obviously working the "staggered sub" thing to delay the game or to intentionally annoy me, the sub comes in.

Matter of fact, if there's a sub heading towards the table, I consider it good game management to wait and whistle the sub in. Your partner's last two looks before administering the throw-in should be to the table and then to you.

Most of my games are at the high school varsity level -- at lower levels I'm *definitely* not sweating this.

Rich

ONE OF THE PRE-REQUISITES OF BEING A GOOD OFFICIAL IS GOOD MAN-MANAGEMENT SKILLS.IF YOU HAVE THIS, YOU WILL DO ALRIGHT