Penalty for Disconcertion . . . by Whom?
 

NFHS 9-1-3 After the ball is placed at the disposal of a free thrower:
c. No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower.

By rule, is it correct, however, that the penalty for disconcertion, when it is merited, may differ, depending on the disconcerter(s)?
Consider: if the opponent doing the disconcerting is a player on the floor, then the consequence is a violation (9-1-PENALTIES-2-a,b).
However, if the opponent(s) doing the disconcerting is bench personnel, must that be a T for unsporting conduct, and not a violation?

At the heart of the matter is this: by rule, can a violation ever be called on a non-player?

(Real situation from the last day of a camp today)

Nope...you can still call disconcertion by an opponent on the bench...the rule says an opponent can not disconcert....if it said a player can not disconcert than you would be correct.

Disconcertion ...
 

I called a disconcertion violation on a bench player years ago when I worked recreation basketball. I have never called it in a scholastic game, but that doesn't mean that I won't if it's merited.

Also, for all you IAABO officials out there who use IAABO signals. Do you realize that there is no IAABO signal for a delayed violation for disconcertion, or for a player violating the three point arc?

Here's the IAABO signal:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2440/...a80aba37_m.jpg

Note the caption. It's only for a "lane" violation.

The NCAA signal is much better, it covers all types of delayed free throw violations: "lane" violations, disconcertion violations, and three point arc violations.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3039/...eb15e1ba_m.jpg

Maybe there really is something to all those I Am A Blind Official jokes.

Pump-You-Up
 

All I can tell from this response is that IAABO officials must bulk up more than NFHS officials. Got anything "by rule"?
(I could never be IAABO cuz I'm too weak and whimpy looking)

Freddy,
Your question has been discussed at length on this forum in the past. The most notable posts have come from MTD Sr. and Jurassic Referee.

There was an old interp from the NFHS stating that disconcertion is always a violation, and may also constitute a technical foul, but it does not have to be both.

Here it is as posted in another thread by JR:
POE #2 in the 2001/02 rule book---"The committee emphasizes that disconcertion is a violation and may result in a substitute throw. If persistent or deemed unsporting, the TEAM/player may also be penalized with a technical foul."
http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...ion-bench.html

That's It Then?
 

Thank you, Nevada.
I had researched the relevant past posts prior to posting and noted that there was no rules reference or casebook cited which explicitly said, in effect, "Bench personnel may be assessed the penalty for a violation for disconcertion." That old interp did say that bench personnel may be penalized for disconcertion. It was not clear whether or not that penalty can or cannot be a violation. And that's what I'm trying to solve.
Forgive me all, for my being persnickety (sp?). I was admonished at camp yesterday for calling a violation on the bench for disconcertion. The supervisor's point seemed to be that bench personnel cannot commit a violation, and that if it is merited then a technical foul is the only recourse. That's what I'm trying to sort out on the basis of the rules.
I appreciate the input of any and all on this matter. :)

What exactly did the bench personnel do?

The Infraction
 

The bench personnel were all yelling at the free thrower while he was shooting. At camp, the brackets for the closing tourney were such that a JV team was playing its own V team. The JV knew they would be defeated soundly and was having a little too much fun for our supervisors' tastes and didn't heed the tactful warning to knock it off after a first FT was successful, so I called a violation for disconcertion when the second free throw was unsuccessful. It solved the problem, but the supervisor whom I respect the most expressed his feedback that bench personnel cannot commit a violation--if any penalty was to be given it would have had to be a bench technical.

Interesting scenario. I could see it penalized as unsporting behavior, especially after a warning has been given. I think that's how my supervisors would want it handled.

Maybe, but it seems Freddy's supervisor was under the impression that a violation isn't supported by rule.

There has been at least one other thread regarding this situation on this Forum and I think one on the NFHS Basketball Forum.

First, it is my opinion (just my two cents and not my interpretation), for both NFHS and NCAA Rules that when the inappropriate actions are done by Bench Personnel, the infraction should be an Unsportsmanlike TF. And, I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) seen an NFHS or NCAA interpretation one way or the other regarding inappropriate actions by Bench Personnel.

That said, it has been the concensus of many of the esteemed members of both this Forum and the NFHS Forum, that Disconcertion can be charged to Bench Personnel. I can live with that interpretation to a point, because I believe that there are situations where tha actions by the Bench Personnel could be so egregious that the appropriate infraction should be an Unsportsmanlike TF rather that a Disconcertion Violation.

MTD, Sr.

Good Insights
 

. . . it has been the concensus of many of the esteemed members of both this Forum and the NFHS Forum, that Disconcertion can be charged to Bench Personnel.
This fact I accept is correct, by rule.

. . . there are situations where tha actions by the Bench Personnel could be so egregious that the appropriate infraction should be an Unsportsmanlike TF . . .
This fact I accept is correct, by rule.

. . . rather that a Disconcertion Violation.
This is what I'm trying to find on the basis of a rule--whether indeed a violation can be called on bench personnel. My supervisor, whom I regard as much more rules knowledgable than anyone I know, was under the distinct impression that violations can only be called on players on the floor. I'm not out to disagree with him, only to become definitively clear on the issue.

I sure do thank those whose efforts have helped me thus far and, though I've studied the previous posts on this site, I will also check out the NFHS site a little later this afternoon.

Let me add this, if your supervisor wants this penalized with a T, do it his way. If he would be interested in discussing the rule, you could approach him and ask if he thinks "opponent" only includes "player" here.

Went to a JC camp last month & the "supervisor" wanted a pass/crass to be a push as opposed to a punch & FTs to be awarded to the offended :rolleyes:

cheerleader
 

I posted this many months ago. I had a fellow official call Disconcertion on a cheerleader. He was the lead and I was the trail of a 3-man crew. I got an earful from the coach of the team that was penalized.

A "pass and crash" would be a 'charging' foul on the offender which is reported with the 'push' mechanic.

So you signal it a push & award FTs too?

How about illegal screens, do you signal block & award FTs?

I could've swore offensive fouls were punched out & sent up North...

Being cute with the wrong one T.

I don't know where you got these awarded free throws from. :confused:

All I said is that the mechanic for a charge is a "push". Around these parts you rarely (if ever) see the 'punch' mechanic reported to the table for offensive fouls on the NCAA Men's side. On the spot of the foul, maybe, but at the table, nope.

Check my original post, I fixed it... not trying to be cute at all. I left the awarding FTs part out before. This is what "he" said.

Page 169 shows the punch signal & the text below it says team-control/player-control :confused:

FTR, the calling official did punch it at the spot. Help me out BNR!

All I can that around here if you 'punch' at the table in camp someone will ask if you work on the Women's side. On the spot you'll see a 'punch' sometimes, usually from the lead.

Now, as far a FT's, well obviously this supervisor was having some kind of major brain fart.

Got it, thanks BNR!

So punch (sometimes) at the spot but push at the table for pass/crash.

Are illegal screens a punch (sometimes) at the spot & block at the table?

I like to punch at the spot while vebalizing offense. That way everybody knows we are going the other way.
I've seen guys use the push or block at the spot with no verbal "offense" & it confuses everyone. Makes people think its a defensive foul.

Yeah that was my point, one of his boys pulled out a book & clarified it though. I think he was getting an airborne shooter that released the ball prior to contacting the defender mixed up somehow. In that case, yeah, we call it a push (no t/c) & shoot the FTs on the other end.

For me it's usually a loud "offensive" or "illegal" while pointing and walking towards the other basket. "Block" or "push" mechanic at the table while saying "team control".

So you have a pass/crash, you call a team control foul, but you don't give the team control foul signal at the table, and only "maybe" at the spot of the foul??? So you only give the "push" signal at the table? Why wouldn't you let EVERYBODY know that you're not shooting free throws? FWIW, this is not a men's/women's thing here. My (men's) assignors like the TC signal to be given at the table.

Good looking out!

Sorry to hijack the thread too, BTW.

I gave the 'punch' in a camp a few years ago and the observer advised against using it. Haven't had anybody tell me that I need to use it since then. So far it's working out for me.

I have never had a problem with everybody not knowing what I have on those type of plays.

Not telling anybody what they should do, only what I observe in my environment and what has been successful for me (or at least hasn't hindered me).

I guess this just makes no sense to me. Why would you not give an approved signal that clearly identifies the foul as non-shooting? :confused: If the purpose of signals is to communicate, that seems like a pretty good signal to use in that situation.

So let me ask you this: does the assignor tell you not to use the PC signal at the table as well? If not, what do you signal after a crash before the try has been released?

For whatever reason, the 'punch' hasn't taken hold around these parts. I don't try to explain it nor care to figure it out. I just watch and listen to those who are more successful than myself and try to emulate them.

Not counting AAU/Rec/Intramurals I work for 5 different assignors. Never once has any of them brought up that I (or anyone else) is not properly using the 'punch' mechanic.

I can't blame you for not rocking the boat. I just don't get it. Just to show you how things are different in different places, this happened near the end of this past season. NCAA (D3) men's game. Conference assignor is at the game because it has implications for the conference tourney. Off-ball screen, pretty obvious, not a difficult call, I grab it from the C and report it with the punch at the table, as I always do.

In the locker room after the game, assignor comes in and says, "Good get on the screen. As soon as you blew the whistle, I turned to [another official] and said, 'Watch. He'll use the right signal, too.' "

That's not to toot my horn, just to show you that around here, anyway, the assignors expect the punch to be used. Funny ol' world, in'nit?

Yep...I was in a college camp a couple weeks ago. It was a mixed group because the supervisor assigns both men and women. I was working with a NCAA-M crew but in front of a NCAA-W official who was observing. He asked me why I was using HS mechanics. I asked if he was talking about my one-handed reporting. He said "no, you keep raising your hand to stop the clock on OOB calls" :eek: I told him my #1 supervisor is a stickler for that.

I bet if you used it, they wouldn't bring it up either. :)

You are probably right. But since none of them bring it up and it's not a natural part of my game I'll leave it alone for now. But rest assured if I was told (or advised) that I need to use it I would get in the mirror and start practicing.