Travel or Jump Ball?
 

What do you call?

A1 drives to basket, begins to gather ball, but defender puts hand on the ball (pins it) which causes A1 to take extra steps.

Have to see this type of play but as you said it's either a held ball or a travel. If the offensive player takes the extra steps in attempt to retain possession I likely go with the travel, otherwise it's to the arrow.

Held ball.

Easy held ball call; by definition the shot has begun and he's prevented from releasing it.

Pick Up, Dust Off ...
 

(Apologies to Frank Sinatra.)

A few other held ball, or travel, situations from the files of the Mythbusters:

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Not so fast, sir! Is A1 an airborne player? ;)

(Hint: Check the definition of held ball.)

is a defenders hand pinning the ball equivalent to equal possesion?

Would you call this fully accurate...? (If not, why not?)

If the ball-holder picks up and sets down his pivot foot, it's a travel.

If the ball-holder picks up and sets down his pivot foot while a defender has his hand on the ball, it's a held ball.

Did the defender's hand on the ball prevent the player from releasing the ball?

Yeah, I realized that after I posted it, just forgot to come back and address it.

Okay, let's modify.

If the ball-holder picks up and sets down his pivot foot, while a defender's hand on the ball prevents the ball-holder from releasing it, it's a held ball.

How's that?

By pure definition? No. As Nevada notes, check out the definition of held ball. Should be in rule 4 somewhere.

1) Yes.

2) On a rules test? No. In a game? 95% of the time Yes.

4-25
It seems as though one part of the definition pertains to an airborne player unable to release the ball on a pass or try.

The other part of the definition is, opponents hands firmly on the ball so that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

I'm going with a held ball prior to the travel here.

Since the player isn't airborne, you have to use the "other part," which states "hands". One hand isn't enough, IOW.

That said, always listen to bob.

Hmmmmm ~~ A1 & B1 are opponents, right? One hand of A1 & one hand of B1 are hands, right?

Not saying it would happen that way... but I dont think they meant the defender has to have 2 hands on the ball. I've seen the offense pick up the ball with two hands & the defender reach out with one hand & cuff it so firmly that undue roughness has occured prior to the travel.

Any case plays out there besides the airborne player sitch?

I think you misunderstood Billy's poing (which is hilariously ironic). He's stating that if the defender simply touches the ball and that touch does not prevent the release of the shot, it's a travel.

Real world: not likely to happen that way, as most of us will deem any touch to have prevented the release. OTOH, it's possible to have a travel even if the ball is touched by the defender on this play.

Snaqs, I am just not understanding then. It sounds like you said the same thing as Billy said. How is it possible to have a travel when a player touches the ball, preventing it from being released in his hands and coming back to the floor with it?? and I don't mean a capped ball I mean the player swipes at it, hits the ball, and the player never loses control and comes back to the floor... I used to think that was a travel as well about 4 or 5 years ago.

I was wrong, you understood him correctly.

It's possible, just not likely that I'm going to rule it a travel.

Consider this: A1 gathers and rises to shoot. On his way up, B1 swipes and brushes the ball; but has no effect on it or the shooter.
A1 continues to rise with his jump and gets the ball into shooting position as B2 rises into position to block the shot. A1 gets flustered and forgets to release the ball due to B2's presence.

Your call?

Right, didn't mean the rules test. Here, my mind was on the "trigger."

When a pivot foot comes up and goes back down, that's a trigger in my mind. That's a travel. However, if the trigger occurs when the defense is pinning the ball, then it's a held ball. That's where I was going.

You mentioned 95% of the time, Bob. What would be a minority case where this wouldn't be a held ball?

my ruling would be a jump ball because the player did touch the ball and the player possessed the ball the whole time. on this particular play i don't believe it is up to me to determine if he got flustered or not, just the fact that I know the defender touches the ball and that the player came back to the floor while never losing solid possession of the basketball.

NCAA Rule 4 Section 37 b

a held ball occurs when an opponent places his or her hand(s):

b. On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or
attempting a try and both players return to the playing court with
both hands on the ball or (men) the airborne player returns to the
playing court never losing control of the ball.

You're entitled to that, obviously, but by rule, that's a travel, as the defensive touch did not prevent the shot from being released. It is up to us to make that decision; big bucks and all that....

Again, in order to actually call this a travel, it would have to be obvious to Grandma in the cheap seats that the defensive touch didn't prevent the shot from being released.

Well, if you thought A1 could release the ball anyway, or if the pivot foot was up, and 95% down and then B1 touches the ball just as the foot hits, or it's a blowout game, A1 is winning big and the arrow favors A.

So time & score does matter in managing a ballgame correctly?

Ben, if B1 somehow touches the ball as the shooter is going up and the shooter continues his motion without B1 contacting the ball then A1 decides to return to the ground or (while airborne) decides to drop the ball to start a dribble there is no way I'm ruling that a held ball.

I revised my post please check above. I actually cited the NCAA rule and everything!!! haha The rule sounds to me like if player puts their hand on the ball and the player does not lose possession that it is a jump ball situation.

The bolded part makes this a judgement call. A mere touch isn't going to do it for me.

The last part was mostly tongue in cheek.

It doesn't say "AND" or "AND/OR" it just says "OR" and I take that to mean that this can happen and it is a jump ball OR this can happen and it is still a jump ball. they are separate acts of which both, SEPARATELY, are considered jump balls. The two aren't intertwined by saying "AND" or "AND/OR"

Just like rules that use "shall" & "may" the key words help us make the right call & sometimes gives us options.

Notice that after the word "or" is "men" in parenthesis. This mean's something from the first part of the passage has to occur. The only logical phrase that we can combine with what follows after "or" is:

"On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or attempting a try and ".

So now we have:

On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or attempting a try and the airborne player returns to the playing court never losing control of the ball.

So as I said before, IMO, a mere touch does not necessarily mean the defender PREVENTED the airborne player from throwing the ball or attempting a try.

You are caught up on the wrong "OR". I agree that either situation around the "OR" you're referring to can independently lead to the violation.

The key part of this that I think you are missing is highlighted above. A mere touch doesn't necessarily "prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or attempting a try".

At the NFHS level you would be wrong. Billy is correct.
The NFHS even has a case book play which says it is a travel, yet you wish to always call a held ball. (btw held ball is the proper term, not jump ball)


Too bad that your pro philosophy changed your thinking. You were better off 4 or 5 years ago.

I think you're too focussed on the semantics (note, I'm not even delving into it). Instead, I'm considering that I doubt the committee's intent was to give the shooter the ability to land w/o violation just because a defender happens to brush the ball.