Agree or Disagree?
 

Summer league game.

Things are starting to get a little chippy, Team A is blowing out Team B. A1 drives to the basket, B1 fouls hard, bringing his arms down on to A1's arms and chest.

I had warned B1 previously about pushing and shoving. I told B's coach he should take him out of the game. He asked if I was calling the foul flagrant. I said no, but it was close. He said OK and sat him for about five minutes. No problems after that.

Agree or disagree with how I handled it?

HTBT, but did you consider intentional, as opposed to flagrant (assuming NFHS rule set)?

I would disagree. You're gave the situation lip service.

Call the INT foul and penalize B1 for his actions.

It is summer league so I have no problem with that. Those games are for teaching and for kids to get a chance to play and learn from the experience. No problem with your approach, but then again I live in your area so that is the general attitude about those games. This especially works when you work the league multiple times and the coaches and players see you often.

Peace

If you're considering flagrant, you most likely should go with an intentional. It sends the message. Like Rut, I don't particularly have a problem with making a suggestion to a coach, but be prepared to be ignored. In summer ball, you can pull this stuff a little more, but I'd never even consider it during the season.

Many of these games at least around here do not even foul out players normally, so that is when I would have no problem making such a request. I would also never do this in a regular season game as fouls mean something. Here they often do not.

Peace

Yeah, I agree with not making a suggestion like this during the season. My thinking was, I'd rather it not escalate. Sit him down, cool his head.

Yeah, this particular league doesn't keep track of player fouls, just team fouls. The emphasis is on game action, not standing around shooting free throws.

And what if the coach had said "No, I'm not taking him out."?

Good question

Personally, I would have handled it like I would a regular season game...

In a blowout as you described, and play getting chippy, anything borderline is at the very least is getting an intentional foul from me. And if a foul is close to flagrant as you described, I'm tossing. I'm not going to ask to coach to sit a player because he's under no obligation to work with you and sit the player. I will say though, that most coaches are smart enough to know to sit a player if a game is getting chippy and he commits an intentional foul.

Go with the INT then maybe have a conversation with the coach. That way you're taking care of your business AND giving the coach the opportunity to address it before it escalates. Let's not forget that the offended player and HIS coach may want to see an adequate penalty so they don't feel like they have to take matters into their hands.

All fair points. Thanks.

my response to the coach: "OK".....

then just call fouls on the player in question a little more closely. He has lost the "benefit of the summer league doubt" with me.....

I don't want to go head-hunting so to speak. My thinking at the time was, if this kid doesn't come out now, he's going to do something he regrets, and I don't want that to happen.

As others have mentioned, I think I'll use an intentional foul to send my message next time.

+1

Don't change your game for one player; it's the definition of unfair.

I am definitely not going to ask a coach to remove one of his own players. He is a man and the coach of that team, I am not, and he can make that decision on his own. Doing so just invites conflict and controversy in most sitches. We are the arbiters of the court, not barterers. We don't go out there to make deals and negotiate. I try to handle business by doing what is right, what is also good for the game and what best fits the situation in time during the game, while being correct rule wise. We usually have several tools to use in varying situations. Use which one you feel is best for the game. If you were told you were wrong in doing what you did. Go back, re-evaluate, re-assess and see if you can do it better next time.

As far as the play goes.... HTBT.... if the player was being chippy while they were getting there butt kicked send a message that you aren't going to let him go headhunting or go kamikaze just to inflict some damage. Call the intentional, if it is worse dump him. Having him out of the game certainly can't hurt your game from what you describe.

I would agree normally, but this is summer ball. Most players do not foul out, the clock is running and the more fouls you call the more players cannot do silly things during play. And sometimes you stop silly stuff.

Peace

I don't think I was clear, but I meant that I wouldn't call a game diifferently for one player than for the rest. If I'm going to tighten things up, I tighten it up for everyone. The suggestion I was answering was to call this one player extra tightly.

int seems to be the best way to go you must maintain control of the game.

but lets make sure we know the diference in a hard foul to stop a basket and a flagrant foul

Around here we have the green light to remove players from summer games.
And we dont "ask" it's simply "coach give me a sub."

If the player doesnt have his mind right upon returning, we have other tools to handle knuckleheads!

Really??? This baffles me, that because it is "summer ball", "summer games" or whatever they may be called that we are somehow given extra power to TELL the coaches what to do with their players. Are you allowed to tell the coach to just go sit in the stands and coach for him as well (i'm just joking), cause you have already influenced his team by "MAKING" him remove the player. What if he says no?? are you allowed to just forfeit the game or what do you do next? I would really like to know. I was never told to do that nor would I do it because I have over stepped my boundaries as an official. I went from being a referee to a coach and that is not what i am there to do. I adjudicate plays and situations within the rules and telling a coach to remove a player or that you need a sub for a player who is well enough(not injured) to play is not within our framework, imo.

I think letting players know that even though you are playing summer ball, that you can't act like a fool, and that really starts with the coaches I guess, but it will sure as heck end with me. If he acts incorrectly within respect for the game, that is a technical foul. If he still wants to carry on then, because he is a kid I will let the coach know that if he continues I have no other option but to eject him. If the coach doesn't tell him to knock it off, pull him out, whatever he CHOOSES (not me choosing for him) then i will dump him and send a real message, at least on my court that he cannot and will not act like crazy on my court.

Remember, these are summer leagues run by coaches. If they tell the officials they can do something like this, why in the world would they not comply when the official takes them up on it?

I hear you, but just like the regular season... I don't write em I just enforce em.
Most summer leagues don't have player fouls around here & some players, usually the younger ones think they can commit over the top fouls without consequences.
Coaches wrote this rule & have NEVER given me a problem.
If a coach were to say "no" Id go with a T.
We also have rules that say if a player receives a T he must sit for 3 full game minutes.

I'm sure you know that officiating is not just about making calls, we must run the game & coaches don't run my ballgames.

FTR, if I whack a kid & he "carries on" I'm not going to coach! His a$$ is done for the evening, point blank period!

We have the same authority here...no foul outs but we can sit a player for any duration we feel necessary if they're out of control or abusing the lack of personal fouls. No coach wants their players hurt by another and are OK with us controlling the game that way since we don't have a 5-foul DQ. Sure, we could go intentional some times, but that doesn't stop them if they don't care.

Most of them don't mind when we call T's that are deserved. They'd rather us call them in summer when they can teach the kids rather than pass on it now, because its just "summer league", and call it in the regular season....and cost them a game.

I've called 2 Ts so far this summer over 8 games....both being in the JV game of a JV/V double header.

In one case, the coach benched the player for the rest of the game. The player, after making a bad play, dropped a few expletives, including an F-bomb that I heard from about 30 ft. away. He told me afterwards that he was glad that I called it because he been trying to get the kid to control his emotions and that he had a history of getting into trouble.

In the other, the two players in the post, and the offense leaned into the defender and the defender resisted and leaned back....not particularly strong or rough, just a little lean. The offense didn't like it and turned around and shoved the defender away and yelled at me about not calling something. So, called something. T. Coach took him out for a while. The other players came up to me to apologize and let me know he had been kicked off the team the previous year for repeatedly getting in to similar trouble. Doesn't look like he's learned yet.

Yes, it is summer league, but we must take care of the game. The coaches generally prefer when we address improper behavior, either unsportsmanlike or careless fouling....it usually helps them teach the things they want to teach.