I worked a boys V game last night with a newer V official, he's pretty good and has a real future, IMO. The game was between the 1st and last place teams in the region. We talked about the coaches in our pregame. The last place team's coach wants to know what guys are made of. I have worked him several times so he leaves me alone, but I told my partner to be ready for him to attack. Partner makes a call in 2Q that V's coach doesn't like and he starts in on him. Partner does a preety good job of difusing the situation and, other than minor chirping we get to half.

At half we talk about V's coach (trailing 38-20) and what he has done and how to handle him. Partner says he's got it under control. I tell him I'll get the coach for doing something behind his back, etc. and partner assures me he will handle coach. As 3Q goes on, chirping gets worse. Coach gets really mad a couple of times in 2nd half and partner just tries to talk him down. finally with about 30 sec left in the game, partner makes a call against V, I get players lined up for 1+1 and look to table and V's coach is at the midcourt line yelling at partner. I put whistle in my mouth (to call T) and partner syas to me, "I've got it." I think good he'll T and we'll go on. Nope. Pushes the coach back to the bench, we shoot the shots and the game ends uneventfully.

When we get to the locker room, I asked him why no T? He told me that there were only 30 sec left and he didn't want to call it then. Why not? The coach clearly deserved one, was waaaayyyy out of the box and yelling at him. If there was ever a justified T, this was it. IMO, partner lost any credibility he might have had with both coaches by not pulling the trigger. I was amazed. I have heard this philosophy more than once, why do we perpetuate it?

Agree completely with you,Stripes!After a coach is warned once,there is no reason NOT to T him if he persists.

You just gotta trust.

I've seen T's help, others hurt. I have some coach's that it just makes matters worse - others better.

I too would evaluate if at the point in the contest your partner needed the "ultimate" infraction (T) to correct the coach's behavior. Maybe so, maybe not. It's his call.

BTW - according to my theory you could have t'd too and expect the same "consideration" and support from the co-official. Why didn't you?

You'll notice that I put my whistle in my mouth to call the T as my partner says he would handle it. Didn't think I could let my partner walk coach back to the bench and then I give him a T, IMO would further destroy what credibility my partner had left.

MO about Ts is that they are like any other call, if the criteria for calling them is met, call it.

Good question.

I called a T on a coach last week and immediately after the call he said, to no one in particular, "I get the message" and sat down.

I have no answer but I do have a question for your partner. If this would have been a JV game would he have Td the coach?

Maybe he was a little gun-shy under the big lights???

While I MAY evaluate the situation, this coach deserved the T. I have called a T on a coach with less than two minutes in the game and his team up by 35. Two reasons behind the call...the call needed to be made and I had both teams on my schedule later in the season. The coach now knows that I will work with him and answer questions, but there is a line he cannot cross.

Also, why do you, and many others, consider a technical the "ultimate infraction"? I have never given anyone a technical...everyone I have called has been earned by the player or coach. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck...QUACK...I mean WHACK. :D

Why don't we call the T?

1) Some guys are new and don't realize that they don't have to take the crap.

2) Some guys know they don't have to take it, but but think calling it will make them look bad, or trigger-happy (even when a T is clearly deserved).

3) Some guys intentionally withhold it b/c they don't want to "insert themselves" into the game.

4) Some guys think they will get ahead more easily if they can "buddy up" to the coaches.

5) Some guys just don't care if the coach goes nuts. It doesn't affect their calls, so they just ignore it.

6) Some guys have a different view of what's unsporting. (To a certain extent, some of these guys wear the label "thick-skinned".)

That's all I can think of for now.

Chuck

I am young official that has moved up to the varsity level this season. I admit there are some situations I have a very difficult time determining when it is appropriate to call a T. Usually, this is the constant chirping that reaches yelling towards the end of the game. i.e., when the coach is in your ear multiple trips down the floor, but not acting outrageous.

I am not afraid to address a coach with a T during a sub-varsity game, but I get a little gun-shy during varsity games (less than ten under my belt). The importance placed on a T by the State and local commissioner is elevated at the varsity level (paperwork, phone calls, explanations etc.).

The simplified criteria I try to follow are: 1)Is the coach doing something inappropriate?, and 2)Is the coach taking me out of my game? If either of these criteria are met then I feel justified.

Can anyone else share their philosophy or lessons learned?

The reason most only call a T as a VERY VERY VERY last resort is the support we receive from evaluators and peers. It is not a very good reason but if you are a young ref you have to be so careful about the reputation you receive and the politics. No one ever remembers the T's you do not call they only remember the ones that are called.

You know the first thing people will say in a blow out game is "why did he call that with 30 seconds left. He should have called it sooner, etc."

Look at an earlier thread talking about granting a time out when the coach wanted a T called. I know there were many people who said to themselves that it was overboard. Infact there was at least one reply that said it.

OK, so I'll be different.

- Where were you during all this, partner? If you felt the guy desrved a T why didn't you give it to him? If you knew going in the guy was gonna give you sh1t then you should have taken care of busness right off the bat.

- If you took it for 31:30 into the game without a T then I really see no reason to change in the last 30 seconds.

Fair enough question. After I shook the coach's hand, he said a total of 3 phrases to me the entire game. He didn't give me any crap during the game. He gave my partner some crap, butnothing out of the ordinary although it did escaltate during the game. Also, my partner told me he wanted to handle the coach when the coach was after him.

Honestly, in my estimation, he didn't do anything that warranted a T until the 30 sec mark (getting way out of the box and yelling at my partner), that's why I think it was justified. I was a milisecond from assessing the T when my partner told me he would handle it. I thought he was calling the T.

I was ready and willing to T him.

The thing that sticks out to me about this situation is when you said that your partner pushed the coach back to his bench and the game ended uneventfully. I think most officials will agree that technical fouls should be called in order to make the game better. If this game ended uneventfully with no T issued, I don't think there was a need for one.

I don't think your partner loses credibility if he handles the situation how he feels appropriate and the game ends as it did. However, if you come in to save the day while your partner's trying to handle a situation, then I think you both lose a little credibility. Let the newbie earn his stripes. If the coach does something behind his back, then you've got the right to step in and handle business.

We are reluctant... <LI>because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, <LI>because we inherently want to get along and just play the game, <LI>because we don't want to be black-listed, <LI>because we are thick-skinned and it doesn't bother us, <LI>because we lose sight that the decorum of the game disappearing.

The title of your post is "Why are we reluctant to call Ts?"

As Tonto would say, "what do you mean we , etc.?"

Nice thread developing - Thanks.

I feel a T is the ultimate beacuse:
As ref's we govern play in a sport where there is a high degree of subjectivity. We all know that. Fast paced game - tons going on. It's complex and that's why I enjoy it. Baseball puts me to sleep even when I'm behind the plate.

I feel the T is the most "emotional" call. It is the violation that gets the most charged reaction. It is the gateway to leaving the gym or the profession if they do not work against poor sportsmanship. The consequences of a T are great. They should be used proporionatly to their power IMO.

But, they are deserved and sometimes no other means to send a message, control and effect a balanced well palyed game.

My debate: If I call a GREAT game is there ever the need for a T? If the coach's see my skills and unbias, will they "behave" - clearly NO. A T for 6 players on the court vrs a T for the coach calling me a bonehead for kicking BADLY a call makes their use subjective.

I want to use T's carefully but not reluctantly. And like all calls its effected by so many factors not able to be described on an internet board.

Carry ON!

If I read this correctly, you believe that no T should have been issued for the coach being at half court yelling at an official because the game ended uneventfully? Is that correct?

IMO, this isn't necessarily about making the game better as much as it is about enforcing rules. IMO, we make the game better by letting the coach know he can't walk on us and his behavior is unacceptable. I believe the game ended like it did because there was 30 sec remaining and the coach was getting his @$$ kicked and he wanted to leave.

I agree that me enforcing this would have made my partner lose credibility, but how does the calling official lose credibility by enforcing an obvious breach of the rules? I let him earn his stripes, I think he got a lesson, the hard way, about how not to do it.

This is all about judgment.
 

If you have been thru the fire, time and time again, an official knows when to give a T and when not to give a T in most situations. The problem is that all of us have differnet levels of expectations and different understanding of what might be acceptable. Unfortunately, Ts are like Obscenity Laws, "you know it when you see it." The problem with that is, everyone has their own level of understanding or expectation of when this is necessary. No different than a block/charge call. The rules might make it clear, but the way you see it is another story. We are all human beings and will view the same situations, differently. Just the way it is.

Peace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stripes

Quote:

If I read this correctly, you believe that no T should have been issued for the coach being at half court yelling at an official because the game ended uneventfully? Is that correct? IMO, this isn't necessarily about making the game better as much as it is about enforcing rules. IMO, we make the game better by letting the coach know he can't walk on us and his behavior is unacceptable. I believe the game ended like it did because there was 30 sec remaining and the coach was getting his @$$ kicked and he wanted to leave. I agree that me enforcing this would have made my partner lose credibility, but how does the calling official lose credibility by enforcing an obvious breach of the rules? I let him earn his stripes, I think he got a lesson, the hard way, about how not to do it.

The official handled it how they felt appropriate at the time. You said you believe the game ended like it did because there were 30 seconds on the clock and the coach was getting his @$$ kicked and wanted to leave. So why prolong the game with a technical, his reaction, shooting two more free throws and possibly making the score worse? Encourage the coach to sit down, be quiet, let the officials do their jobs and everyone can go on their merry way.

I don't like to call them ,but sometimes nothing else works. If being a jerk, whack him. Do the crime, do the time as we say in police school.
Realistically there should be nothing different from calling a T then from calling a block or hack, i mean they are just foul, right? If you think someone has earned a T, they give it to them. If the person who gets hit with the T dosen't learn their lesson after one technical, then they sure will after the 2nd technial and they are in the dressing room.

TR

2 Ts for the coach
 

Middle school game tonight

Early in the first quarter, boisterous voice from the bench "Three seconds! Three seconds! Three seconds! You need to call that!" All while there is a group of 8th graders playing "volleyball" under the hoop (You know the routine. Multiple shots, none of which have a chance of scoring.)

I soon realize this could be an unpleasant coach, aka Bobby Knight, Jr. (BKJ)

Next time down, one of BKJ's players is beaten by a nice athletic move. The loudmouth coach starts ripping his player a new "one." I deliberately pause and stare at him, give him a "hairy eyeball", and shake my head. He appeared to get the subtle message and is relatively quiet for the rest of the half.

Second half, Amnesia must have set in... Well, actually the opponents went on a run and built a 5 pt lead into a 17 pt lead. BKJ became increasingly verbally abusive toward his player and started chipping about the officiating again.

With 3:18 left in the 3rd qtr, I called an "illegal use of hands foul" against BKJ's player. It was clearly on a continuous motion to shoot. I reported the info to the table and moved to trail for the ensuing FTs.

In the quiet as my partner prepares to administer the FTs I hear BKJ... "No way! He wasn't shooting! He can't be shooting! Hey Ref, get in the game! Where did you come up with that call?"

I raise my hand (Universal Stop sign) and clearly state "Coach, we're shooting two. I have heard enough."

BKJ: "I will let you know when I am done!"

(Tweet) (Signal the T) Report to the table: "I have a direct technical on the coach for unsportsmanlike conduct."

BKJ: (Standing about 8 feet away from me, with fists clinched and veins popping out of the side of his neck.)
"I said I will let you know when I am done!"

(Tweet) (Signal the T) Report to the table: "I have a second direct technical on the coach for unsportsmanlike conduct. Coach you are now done. Please leave the gym now."

Asst coach is embarassed by BKJ's conduct and parents from BOTH teams give a standing O as my partner oversees BKJ stomping out of the gym.

This was a case were the Ts made the game better.

Final score: 45 - 41 BKJ's players were much more relaxed and closed the gap, but ended up a little short.

my question to you is, what if he was 20 year vet, would you have done the same thing?
you know, i think as a rookie, sometimes you have to learn and live YOUR own mistakes. hes gonna haev to get a feel for what his FINE LINE is gonna be. maybe the coach did cross it that night, but i m sure he went home and thought abuot it, which is important.

A "T" in this situation, :30 to go after he's pretty much run wild all game doesn't really compute. I think your partner made the right decision.

HOWEVER....

Your partner should not have let this goofball ride him for so long. He's to be commended for having a thick skin and trying to manage the coaches, but he's going to have to learn that there comes a time when you gotta be the bad guy and **WHACK**. And when that time comes YOU MUST ACT.

You said yourself this coach likes to "test" officials. He figured out pretty quick your partner wouldn't T him, so he just kept riding him. He obviously left you alone because he knew you wouldn't let him get away with it.

I'm also wondering, like a couple of the other folks, why maybe you didn't whack him instead.

I had a game the other day (2-person crew) where one player was chirping A LOT to my less-experienced partner, but he just argued with him, or tried to talk him down. Later on, I'm in transition from T to L and I see this player getting right in my P's face yelling, with my P (for some reason) not doing anything. Enough! I whacked him from 50 feet away. After the game, I told my P that we're here to ref, not to endure a non-stop stream of b****ing and whining.

SIGH, my second T all season through 45 games (I consider myself very lucky this year).

Just my thoughts...

Re: 2 Ts for the coach
 

This has been said before but middle school games usually combine the rawest play with the loudest coaches & the least experienced refs. By far the hardest to work, or even watch. It's not surprising that when you have 1 coach or ref who is willing to act as the adult around all these children that the game improves significantly. Good job Willie!

I agree, but don't call one FOR your partner. As the experienced official if your partner needs your help. Talk to the coach or captain or whoever is giving you the problem. Once you talk to them, you deal with it. But I wouldn't suggest giving a T "for" your partner. IMO I think you did the right thing by letting your partner handle it.

I don't quite agree. I think Josh is right that you should let him live or die with his call. You didn't need to act if your partner was still in the game. If he had the look of a scared puppy, then, maybe. Did you talk to him about this during TOs, inbetween quarters, and half time? What did your partner say in regards to how he wanted to handle the situation?

Stripes,
To me the issue is not taking care of the Coach earlier.
I agree that by the time it got too much for you to take,
the "T" would not have accomplished anything.
Now if he's really acting a fool, whack him regardless of whether your partner says he can handle it or not.
Obviously he has shown that he CAN'T!
I know you well enough and trust your judgement, that I know you would do the right thing for the game.
Post game, did you talk about Coach management with your partner?

Ciao,
Drake

By the way.
Three criteria for a "T" that I learned this summer.
1. Does it fit?
2. Did it accomplish what you wanted it to?
3. Can it be defended? (By the power's that be, that is.)

I cannot speak for the rest of the country but to become a varsity ref in my association takes many years. Years of evaluation at the Frosh and JV levels, working with varsity officials who will file written reports on you to both the BOD, the assigner(s), with a copy going to the ref. BTW, written evaluations are also used between varsity officials. So, contrary to what I said about the bright lights, by the time one gets to doing varsity games he/she is no rookie.

As to the coach going home and thinking about it, yes he will. “I got away with it tonight; I’ll do it again another time.”

I agree that the timing was not ideal, but honestly Drake, would you let a coach stand at half court and yell at you at any time during a game? As I said, I put my whistle in my mouth to call it and my partner stops me to say he's got it. I was going to T the coach.

I'll pipe in...

I know stripes....I probably know the other official.
Stripes would never leave a partner intentionally hanging, and would intervene if necessary.
Now to be specific... I think that in our association it is viewed as somehow inherently evil or a breakdown on our fault if we call a T.
How many guys had the guts to call a T on our former Bingham coach?
I called a T on a coach for yelling at me a couple of yeras back... There was a hard foul in the paint. He cam off the bench yelling " You have to call something" three or four times.. after he got passed me then he yelled, I have a player hurt. He thought he could scream and yell to the paint and then get away with it by yelling his kid was down. I called the T.. After the kid was going to the bench my partner tells this guy that he has a T, he will be sitting the rest of the game. He yells "That's crap!" and pushes my partner ( shades of Jerry Sloan). Of course my partner whacks him and we send him packing. After the game the two varsity guys come down and say we could have handled it better and both of them said and they were dead serious that they had not called a T in 15 years of officiating.

I think officials get blamed for T's instead of looking at it a just another foul. We call blocks and charges, when a player breaks the rule. Yet it is somehow our fault when a coach gets a T.

I had a game couple of weeks ago. I called a T and he yelled back it's about time ( You think he wanted one?) I did his game about 4 weeks later and he was running around near the dressing room and he said I'll be better tonight, and he told me he wanted the T at the time to fire up his kids and if that did not work then he did not have to worry much about hard coaching that game cause he was sitting (his team was down 20-4 in the first four minutes of the game)

I also think that officials in general dont like issuing penalties that are two shots and the ball.... I'd like to go to the NBA rule. 1 shot point of interruption. Coach you got my attention and half way out the door! but doesn't break the flow of the game....

Well said, Kelvin. I agree.

One shot or two (NBA or NCAA), I don't care. But I too would like to see HS go to the point of interruption.

Where you been, Kelvin? Must be busy out there :)

Chuck

T or not to T
 

I am from Edmonton Alberta and work at the College level. In this association the official would not move very far or work many games if he had not given the T. The evaluator and his partners would have asked one question. Where is your line of tolerance and he better of had a good answer. If the game is not close and he didn't take care of business earlier he absolutely had to do it then. You are right he lost all credibility and put a target on his back for the rest of the year.

How much longer are we going to put up with the crap from the coach? What is the job of the coach? Why do we let the coach, coach and officiate? Do we as officials coach the players when we are on the court? I 've got a varsity game tonight and I know the coach for the home team is a screamer. I will take a good *** chewing from any coach if I was out of position something that is my fault.

In Illinois the head coach is the one that rates us after each game. Talk about the fox in charge of the hen house.
It's sort of neat to read your rating from the losing coach, then read the one from the winning coach. It's like night and day.

I will give a coach one warning,not to be a as_hole but to make sure he understands his role. I think if you keep the coach in check the fans will follow.

Stripes,

You even need to ASK, if I would let a Coach stand a mid-court screaming at me?:confused::D Puhleeeessseee!

You know better than anyone on this board, (with the exception of Kelvin) my reputation for the quick "T".
(undeserved IMHO) I just take care of business.
However, several events that transpired over the summer, and teaching from officials that I respect very much, has given me a little bit of a new insight. As a result, I feel that I have been slower to "T", than at any time since I've been reffing.

My philosophy is, "you take care of your business, and I'll take care of mine". If you turn your back on a coach or player and then they act inappropriately, then it becomes
"my business."

I hate it when a partner comes in and needs to be the "hero"
If i'm handling it, unless we go to blows, stay out!

I know you were being a good partner. I think you showed good restraint, and respect for your partner in holding your whistle once he told you that he would handle it.
Like I said earlier, The problem in my eyes is not the last :30, it was the rest of the game when the Coach was not dealt with.
I think sometimes as "veteran" officals, we need to be aware of how our partner is being treated even though the coach/player may not be attacking us.
If you feel that your partner is being misstreated and he's doing nothing about it, step up and "whack".

By the way Kelvin, I have also been privy to the "I haven't called a "T" in -- years officiating" speech.
Bunch of crap if you ask me.
If officials don't use the means given, to control situations, then they are missing out. IMO.

In the Adult Rec league I had the nickname at the beginning of the year MR. T. I made my mark in the sand, and stuck by it. After couple weeks never had a problem in the games I worked.
HS level my mark in the sand is a little different. But, I have a certain amount that I am going to take. I have maybe 2 T's a year on coaches. Many officials in my area have not had 2 T's in ten years. My area the coaches pick who will do the conference tourney. I have never gone! Maybe because I am not as good of an official as the others, maybe because I am not afraid to say enough is enough. Sure I would love to do a tourney. But, if not I have more important things in life My family.

AK ref SE

I figured that I misunderstood you, because I didn't think there was a snowball's chance in He11 that you would let that go on. :cool:

Philospohically, I am on the same page with you. My partner, who you and Kelvin know, was, IMO, doing a good job of dealing with the coach. He didn't deserve a T until the last 30 sec. That was the first offense of any kind that would warrant a T--but it did, IMO, warrant the T.

Thanks for the love in any case. :D

im sorry, i meant the official would learn and he was gonna go home and think about what happened. i think your right abuot the coach though...haha

in this situation, i think a good veteran varsity official who is WILLING to let the young guy live and learn , will if the vet feels the rookie is maybe taking a little too much SH*T, then to ask him a question in the pregram BEFORE anythign has happened, that way it doesnt make the rookie uncomfortable during the game or after the fact. ASK him something like: "if a coach begins riding you tonite while its your first night out there, hwo do you plan on handling it?" that way, the vet knows not to get too worried if he plans on being passive his first night unless its obvious, or if hes gonna go out there and stick to his guns and be real firm. i think vets need to give young guys some breathing room, how else are we gonna learn?