A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp.

The reason for this definition is time after time at games I attend officials are getting this call WRONG! Situation: player picks up his dribble and drops the ball-BOOM double dribble called by the official.

What criteria do you use to determine what is a fumble and what is another dribble. To me it is pretty obvious, officials who call this don't know the rules. I saw this called in the State Tournament last year and cringed in my seat. I can't believe that coaches let this call go with no challenge as well.

BigJoe,
Part of my "criteria" is to determine the intent of the player. If, after dropping the ball, the player only means to recover it and not to change position/location, then I judge a fumble.
I agree with you that this action is mis-called too often.
mick

I see it called alot where the player cannot handle a pass and the ball goes to the floor. He then gains control and starts his dribble. Ref calls double dribble. I teach the kids they can dribble in this situation, and then in the game they are called for double dribble. What can you do though, if they don't interpret the rule the same as you??

If I were a coach, I would teach my players to grab the ball better.

JLC,
There is one other thing I meant to add to this post and that is alot of the time (especially girls) control the pass with a dribble. Coaches need to coach the players to catch the pass with two hands and then dribble. They catch the pass with one hand pushing the ball to the floor. In my mind this constitutes a dribble. If the player catches it with both hands and drops (fumbles) it while trying to control the pass, the dribble would still be available to the player. On the one hand control with the dribble, if they can't control the ball, the dribble is over if the official deems the catch with one hand and put to the floor to be a dribble.

One other thing JLC. In the pregame meeting with the officials ask them about this rule. Ask what their interpretation will be. This may cause them to think twice before calling a fumble a DD.

Big Joe, I thought your original question was a good one. I am not an official, I coach kids. I think that part of coaching is teaching them how to play and what the rules of the game are. Each year I buy a rule and case book (and actually read them). I have tried to get our local board to furnish them to all coaches, but so far no luck, so I buy them myself. I follow this board, and occassionally ask questions. I have learned a lot. There were many things I did not know, even after playing the game for more than 40 years.

I liked the question because I too wonder how different officials interpret the "fumble". To what extent do they deem what might be a fumble really a controlled ball that is ruled a dribble. It could give me insight as to what to teach my kids. I am not here trying to criticize the refs, I am trying to figure out what they look for in these situations.

I really don't appreciate the smart a** remark about the coaching (not you Big Joe). Kids being kids, no matter how much you teach them, they are going to make mistakes. Some games my kids look great, and some they look like they have never been coached. I follow this board to learn, but remarks like that don't help matters much.

As far a pre-games, there is no such thing. We play in the Twin Cities area. Traveling teams play weekend tournaments. They schedule the games so that we usually get 3 to 5 minutes of warm-up between games, so not much time for anything. I do occassionally try to talk to the ref after the game if I have a question, but they are doing so many games that often they don't remember specific instances, or they are running to get something to drink or to the rest room between games.

BigJoe
 

Have you ever had a coach ask, "How do you call your DDs?" :)

I would be suspicous of the coach's motives for asking such a basic and direct question? Then I would anticipate... What other questions is he going to ask. "How do you call three seconds? Do you call 'over the back' on the defensive player?

It would be a bit peculiar to have a coach ask these type of questions, but coaches intrigue me. (For Mark P) They remind me of going to the zoo! :D

Bottom Line: I would try to address it as briefly as I could without appearing smug. The less said the better.


JLC:
I see you posted while I was responding to Big Joe. I work the Great Northwoods League circuit in WI (which includes some teams from MN) You are absolutely right that the officials are working their butts off and are not "available" for any lengthy discussions (during the tourney).

I suggest that you diplomatically (I am sure you would) ask if they might be available after their games are done for further discussion and/or offer a "business card" (Note with your name and number) for follow-up discussions.

[Edited by williebfree on Jan 24th, 2003 at 09:33 AM]

Sorry, Coach.
 

Sorry you took it that way coach.

My point was that if the officials are mis-calling the fumble, then your only recourse is to not fumble.
Suggestions:
<LI> As part of the warm up, have each kid stand 2' away from the wall and two-hand bounce the ball 50X as fast as they can.
<LI> Practice catching the ball and looking the ball into the hands.

Ya know what? I don't care who wins.
mick

Wow mick! You mad somebody mad? D@mn! :D

If the ball goes off their hand on a pass, that's not a dribble.

But if they then bat the ball to the floor a couple of times to gain control, I have a dribble.

That ain't new.
 

...Seems to be a coach. :cool:

Re: That ain't new.
 

Imagine that! http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/thumb.gif

I always thought JLC was a good guy but I guess I didn't know he was a coach. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/togo.gif

Go easy Coach, we're just kidding around. I can assure you that mick would never post anything to inentionally offend anyone. He's lives in my bizarrio world! ;)

Re: Re: That ain't new.
 

Now that's a scary thought...JLC - a question: Why did you automatically think that was a smart-a$$ comment? I don't understand why you jumped to that conclusion...

Coach
I agree that this is mis-called many times. And catching the ball seems to be a lot harder than it should be.

I agree with what Mick says, by the way. I tell my players not to put it in the hands of the officials. sure there's a rule, but if you don't focus and play right, you are taking your chance on the official seeing it the same way you do. Play clean and there's a lot less chance of anything gettting misinterpreted.

I can tell you that almost our entire warm-up includes passing (except when we do some focused dribbling work if time allows. I watch immediately for lack of focus, both on the part of the passer and receiver. We also talk about warming up properly before we even start. If it goes bad, I stop the entire warm-up, get them focused, and start again. It has helped considerably and contributed to us starting much faster than we used to in games. But we still have those days. . .

Mick, I apologize if I took your comment wrong. I usually don't react like that. Was in a bad mood this morning (overslept, it's been below zero for about 7 days, we had some kind of e-mail virus, etc). I have come to respect your responses on this board. That is why it kind of surprised me. Didn't mean to start something.

By the way, I am not a real, paid coach. I am a volunteer youth coach, and really quite mellow on the sidelines.

no?
 

JLC,
Not a real coach? ...Dealing with youth as a volunteer? ...Caring about rules? Rethink that, you are a real coach. You sound like an official's first line of defense.
I woke U.P. to 4 degrees this morning and thought it was heavenly. ;)
mick

Nah,he e-mails me,and I do it for him! I got no couth.

JLC,mick? Just say the word!

PS-let me know when you want me to lay off of Chuck.

JLC,
I officiated in a tournament a Champlin Park HS two weeks ago. I was working with one of our resort guests that officiates down there. Was your team playing there? I was wondering.
Willie B if I was a coach I would just ask the official how he interprets the fumble rule. That simple. From how he answers, you should be able to tell how he will call it. That is all I was talking about.

Everybody knows that Mick has nothing but the best intentions. :)




What age youth? Teaching them not to fumble is right up there with teaching them not to look up at their mother for her reaction to every play. I have coached in 9-10 and
11-12 boys leagues for several years and I tell them to focus on 3 things, defense, defense, defense. Sure, do your drills to develop offensive skills in practice but come game time fire them up on defense. "Okay, boys, move your feet, keep your man in front of you, and don't give up an easy basket. Treat every rebound like it belongs to you." Most intense game I ever coached was 2 years ago,
9-10 boys, and ended 2-0. We lost but I will never forget it.

Not a problem.. That posting was mostly tongue-in-cheek anyhow. :D

It happened Friday.
 

BigJoe,
Zebra44 and I had your scenario Friday night right in front of the questioning coach in the first half.
I was Trail, and it was kinda interesting explaining the call to him while the opponent fumbled the pass, and then dribbled to the paint toward Clyde. ;)
mick

Incredible
 

The score makes it look like it might have been a forfeit? An entire game without tickling the twines - no wonder you can't forget it. Obviously your DEFENSE was spectacular!

Re: Incredible
 

I had a game last week with the score...

Are you ready for this?

70-01, no that isn't a typo. ONE, they scored one point in the end of the 3rd quarter. And we spent a lot of time shooting free throws.

Re: Re: Incredible
 

Denny, where was this at?