Had a situation the other night where a Home team player "dunked" the ball before the game when the officials were on the court.
(About 13 minutes before game time)

Actually there were two. The first one I didn't see (wink) that well, as the player was above the rim and "pushed the ball down" without touching the rim.
The second "infraction" the player caught the ball, did a 180, again above the rim, and "pushed" the ball down" as he was facing away from the basket.(Backwards dunk) Also, didn't touch the rim. (Actually looked pretty cool, nice athletic move)

Well, the Visiting Coach saw this and took a look over at me and made a motion with his hand (kind of like we do on a made basket). I gave him a nod that indeed I had seen it and was going to penalize with a T.

Most of us do not want to start the game with a T...plain and simple...but sometimes it can't be avoided, this was one of those times...IMO.
My partner, a top 5 official, and good buddy was going to be the Referee that night. (We take turns being Referee, usually do about 4 games a year together.)
Well, he thought I was kidding when I approached him and said we were going to have to start the game with a T because of the "dunk".
I was smiling but assured him I was not kidding, and pointed to the Visiting Coach who was watching our conversation and, smiling also, shaking his head yes.
My partner said, "If you are going to call that...then you are the Referee tonight." I said, "OK, bro, no problem."

Home team Coach was informed and told that by rule he now has an indirect technical foul but, (and sorry purists) I told him we would give him some "slack" on the "seatbelt" rule.

Anyway...the players said they did not dunk...as they did not touch the rim when "pushing" the ball down through the basket. That is how they defined "dunking", touching the rim.

How would some of you define "dunking"?

Dude

Per 4-16...Dunking or stuffing is the driving, forcing, pushing or attempting to force a ball through the basket with the hands.

Nothing to do with the rim. You have to decide if they tapped / dropped / threw it in versus forcing the ball through. Never good to start with T, but if they kids are making up their own definition and the coach lets them come that close that you have to decide, then the coach needs to get control of their team and deserves the T. Make him sit. Bet they won't do that again.

Mregor

I have no problem at all with what you did, even the part about giving some leeway on the seatbelt, though be very careful about this. Perhaps you could have handled it better by going to them after the first one that you didn't see too well and saying "fellas that could be construed as a dunk stay away from the rim". Maybe a little preventative officiating would have done the trick, JMHO.

Dude,you're just setting yourself up for headaches when you start making up your own rules. If the other coach gets a T for yapping at you,you now won't be able to seatbelt him either.That's not being consistent or fair if you do.If his Assistant then gets a T,and you have to charge that head coach with an indirect T,you still aren't going to be able to seatbelt him for the same reasons.Jmo,but I think you're not doing yourself any favors in this sitch,and you sure as heck aren't helping the next set of officials that go in there and call the rules properly,and have to hear "well the last crew we had didn't seatbelt me."

Mregor...funny you should say that. The Home Team Coach stated that "that would be the last time his players are going to doing "ANY dunking" ANYTIME during the pregame warmups. I was kind of sorry to hear that because I know the fans like to see the displays of athleticism before the game...before the officials get on the court.


devodog69, thanks for your reply, but you have to be careful about what you are saying as well.
In fact, this same partner and I had a game a few years ago where a player "dunked" during the pregame warmups.
This dunk was more obvious as I heard it but didn't see it because I was observing the other team.
Well my partner did as you stated. He went over to "warn" the player about "dunking" during the warmups.
BIG MISTAKE...the opposing coach saw this and blew his stack. He quickly came to us and asked, "Where in the rule book does it say you "WARN" players about dunking in pregame!! The kid dunked, you saw it, obvioulsy, because you went and talked to him...NOW DO YOUR JOB AND "T" HIM!!"
My parnter apologized but said that we wouldn't be starting the game with a T. (The coach later apologized for getting so irrate, but said if we weren't going to call it then pretend not to see it...he was an ex-official)
I decided, after that incident, that if I was not going to T the player for a pregame dunk...then ignore it...or don't see it. ;)

Dude

JR, I knew I could count on you to show me my evil ways.
If you were a traffic cop JR, I bet everyone you stopped would get a ticket, wouldn't they? ;)
I must say though that I didn't really "make up my own rules", I just didn't enforce the rule to it's full potential.
I agree with you, it is not being consistent and I don't want another crew to seem over officious...but, it just felt right in this situation.

Dude

If I saw it, he wouldn't have to tell me to do my job, it would be done. If, however, I just heard it, suspected it, or saw what you saw, I would handle it by telling them to stay the heck away from the rim, not by standing there and saying you are giving a T and waiting for them to do it again, and again.

[Edited by devdog69 on Jan 13th, 2003 at 11:56 AM]

JR, I knew I could count on you to show me my evil ways.
If you were a traffic cop JR, I bet everyone you stopped would get a ticket, wouldn't they? ;)
[/B][/QUOTE]Dude,if I give somebody a ticket for violating a law that I had just made up myself,I think that I would definitely be in the wrong.I don't have a problem with an official using their judgement to either call or ignore something.I do have a problem with an official that does call something,and then misapplies the related rule when he enforces it.

If I applied the traffic laws equally,fairly,and the way that they were written, would you say that I'm doing my job properly or not?

devdog, sorry if I didn't make myself clear.
I was going to ignore the first "dunk"...(the wink)

The second "dunk" I did indeed go over and tell the players that we had a "dunk" and a T to start the game...and to watch out for any further "dunks".

That is probably why the Visiting Coach was "asking me" with his hand motions if I was going to call the T because he saw me talking to the players.

Dude

As I said before, Rook, I think you handled it fine, but maybe it could have been better. Do you think you could have told them after the first time to knock it off and got by without giving one? Just asking.

Dude,if I give somebody a ticket for violating a law that I had just made up myself,I think that I would definitely be in the wrong.I don't have a problem with an official using their judgement to either call or ignore something.I do have a problem with an official that does call something,and then misapplies the related rule when he enforces it.

If I applied the traffic laws equally,fairly,and the way that they were written, would you say that I'm doing my job properly or not? [/B][/QUOTE]

Well JR...here is how I look at it.
If a guy is speeding and I stop him, and I see that he is not wearing his seatbelt...and btw he does not have his registration or insurance card...oh yeah, he dosen't have current tabs either...I could nail him for everything, and yes JR...then "I'm doing my job properly" as you stated.

Dude

Seatbelt
 

As I made clear on another thread, I am opposed to the fact that the rule reads in such a way that a pregame dunk leads to a seatbelting of the coach. But I do not disagree with the need to follow the rules as written. You cannot enforce half of a rule. You appear to have felt that they were only "kinda, sorta" dunking, so you would only "kinda, sorta" enforce the rule. It is either a dunk or it isn't, and then the penalties apply.

Why not only give one free throw when the player only partially fouls a shooter and they miss, because it seems appropriate to the offense. They didn't really hammer them.

Why..
 

Ok guys. Simples rules question here. What is the intent of this rule anyways? I think it's rather foolish. Why can't players dunk in the warm-ups?I was told that it eliminates the possibility of a shattered back board before the start of the game.Is this true?

Maybe i'm a little bitter because the only 2 times i dunked were in the warm ups.

TR

Why the rule? Shattered backboards, injured players, lots of other reasons. Call it if you see it.

I don't think it's that big of a deal. Every coach knows that dunking in warm-ups warrants a technical foul. If they don't, they are idiots.

If a coach is stupid enough to let his kids take the risk, it serves him right if we catch them once in a while. The coach only has himself to blame.

Well JR...here is how I look at it.
If a guy is speeding and I stop him, and I see that he is not wearing his seatbelt...and btw he does not have his registration or insurance card...oh yeah, he dosen't have current tabs either...I could nail him for everything, and yes JR...then "I'm doing my job properly" as you stated.

[/B][/QUOTE]Dude,if you do nail him for everything you mentioned above,and the LAW now states that the total fines are $500,can you now tell the guy that if he gives you $200,you'll let him go?

To use your analogy,both a cop and a referee may make up their own minds as to whether someone is breaking a law/rule.They can call/charge someone,or let it slide.That's their judgement.However,if either of them does decide to nail someone,what neither of them can do now is inflict any punishment that is outside of the written law/rule that they are supposed to be enforcing.

If a team dunks before every game, the coach is to blame. In reality, it is usually a player or players that dunk in one warm-up. The coach can no more prevent an isolated incident than they can prevent players from doing any of a number of things players do, whether they violate rules or common sense. Some players just make bad decisions, and coaches cannot always control that.

Consistent problems of any kind are the fault of the coach. But the thing I like least about this rule (and the tenor of this discussion) is it seems to assume that player behavior during a specific warm-up is under the control of the coach. I can tell them not to do it, and I can tell them they shouldn't have done it and take corrective action after they have done it, but I can't stop the act from occurring.

I think that anything players do while legitimately on the court should be treated as player behavior not bench behavior. JMO - I know many disagree.

Point well taken, I apologize if my post seemed terse. Of course I know a coach cannot control a player 24/7. I guess my point is that they should not be upset if their player causes them a tech for dunking in warm-ups.

I think we agree
 

refneck
I now coach girls, so if they dunk in warm-ups, I give them a prize :D

When I coached boys, if they dunked in warmups, I was most definitely upset - with them not with the ref ;)

I'm glad pre-game dunks involove an indirect on the coach. I think we would be starting many more games "shooting two" if the NFHS made this a bench technical.

BTW Hawks Coach, IMHO, if the rules make pre-game dunks painful for the coach, coaches have incentive to provide leadership here. Refs can only administer a tech. The coach has many more tools at his/her disposal to keep this from happening.

Consistent problems of any kind are the fault of the coach. But the thing I like least about this rule (and the tenor of this discussion) is it seems to assume that player behavior during a specific warm-up is under the control of the coach. I can tell them not to do it, and I can tell them they shouldn't have done it and take corrective action after they have done it, but I can't stop the act from occurring.

I think that anything players do while legitimately on the court should be treated as player behavior not bench behavior. JMO - I know many disagree. [/B][/QUOTE]Coach,I gotta agree with that completely.I personally think that a coach should only be seatbelted because of something that they do.I think that part of my job is to control the behaviour of assistant coaches,players on the bench,etc. I know how to do that,and I'm not afraid to do it.I also know most of the time when a head coach is actually responsible for,or condoning bad behavior,also.However,if the coach is COACHING ,I really don't give a damn what he/she is doing.

The problem is,though,that if I'm supplied a penalty for a call,I should be applying that exact penalty fairly and equally.I can use my judgement as to whether or not I'm going to call something in the first place.There's nothing in the rules,however,that says I can change the penalty for something if I do decide to call it.

JR
See my initial response, because I think we agree 100%. I oppose the rule and its apparent underlying rationale, not the need to apply it. (And it isn't the only, or necessarily the first, rule I would change :) )

tharbert
There are many inappropriate player actions that occur on the basketball court for which a coach must exercise leadership to prevent and impose discipline when the standards are violated. This is the only rule I can find that involves an action by a player (as defined by role, not by rule ;) ) who is legitimately on the court but performing an illegal action, and results in the coach receiving a penalty. Two free throws is punishment enough, IMO.

If you can find any other rule that punishes a coach with a seatbelt when a player is legitimately on the court, please direct me to it. If not, why is this action so much worse than fighting, swearing, unsportsmanlike activity, etc.? Make any player T a seatbelt, because a coach shouldn't allow players to behave badly at any time.

This rule makes no sense to me whatsoever. And the seatbelt penalty really only happens because by rule, these kids on the court aren't "players" because the game hasn't started. Somehow, we have more control over all of their potential actions?! Most refs seem to think so. I exercise a lot of control over my players and how they behave, but cannot agree with that assumption.

Coach,I did see your initial response-and I certainly was agreeing with it,as well as your rationale.I don't like the concept either of having to nail a coach who basically hasn't done a damn thing.Hitting the player with the direct T is punishment enough,with the 2 FT's,the player being charged with one of his 5 fouls before disqualification,the team being charged with a foul towards the bonus,and the player being put on a short leash with one more T and he's ejected.But,if I do happen to make the call,I gotta then follow the rulebook-whether I agree with it or not.

It's not the only rule that I don't like,either.But,that and $23.48 will get me a coffee out in Portland.:D

Dude,if you do nail him for everything you mentioned above,and the LAW now states that the total fines are $500,can you now tell the guy that if he gives you $200,you'll let him go?

To use your analogy,both a cop and a referee may make up their own minds as to whether someone is breaking a law/rule.They can call/charge someone,or let it slide.That's their judgement.However,if either of them does decide to nail someone,what neither of them can do now is inflict any punishment that is outside of the written law/rule that they are supposed to be enforcing. [/B][/QUOTE]

Man, I need to be a cop...$200 for one stop. woohoo

What about if they grab one of the side rims (before the game)? I had this happen last night. I warned the player and he was lucky the other team was in the locker room at the time.

If you wanna give him some slack, fine, but don't tell him you're going to do it. You've just opened yourself up to all kinds of problems. You'd be better off to leave it alone. It's his responsibility to make sure he's players don't dunk. He didn't. Sit down.

It won't happen to him again.

I am sorry Tony. I think I read your post so quickly I missed the part where you went through the technique I am supposed to employ to "make sure" my plyers don't dunk. Does this involve some form of physical restraint, or an electroshock collar that goes off if a player's hand goes above the rim? I am amazed at the power we coaches are supposed to have over players.

Also, since I can clearly control their actions in this context, can I employ the similar techniques to make sure they never commit a dumb foul or turn the ball over due to an unforced error? According to this philosophy, I clearly can prevent players from doing the wrong thing, or, if they do anything wrong, make sure they NEVER do it again.

Oh good, it's getting ugly!
 

Up late last night, coach? :(

Sorry but just because you don't like the rule doesn't make it wrong. You are responsible for the conduct of bench personnel. Before the game, players warming up are bench personnel. But according to you, it sounds like coaches shouldn't be held accountable for anything that bench personnel do. So, if your asst. coach stands and curses me out, you have no responsibility to restrain him, or even counsel him that such behavior is not acceptable, even before he does it?

Quote:

Also, since I can clearly control their actions in this context, can I employ the similar techniques to make sure they never commit a dumb foul or turn the ball over due to an unforced error? According to this philosophy, I clearly can prevent players from doing the wrong thing, or, if they do anything wrong, make sure they NEVER do it again.

We aren't talking about an unforced error or a dumb foul, are we? We're talking about a deliberate act. Do you really think you would have a problem with players dunking in pregame if you:

1- Told then it was illegal
2- Told them it would result in a technical foul
3- Told them that there would be consequences if they did do it.

If that's the case, you must not have any discipline at all. And I don't believe that's the case. Sorry coach but I ain't buying.

Hope you get more sleep tonight! :)

1. Tony, I have never said that we are not accountable for the conduct of personnel on our benches. It's just that normally bench personnel are actually located on the bench (or should be), with the obvious exception of warm-ups, when they are on the court. That also means they are in close proximity to me. I do not always stand right over my players in warm-ups, nor do many head coaches. I observe parts of their warm-up, and even step in and say something when I should.

2. This is the only, repeat, ONLY bench personnel T that I do not think should result in a seatbelt of the coach. and I think it could be fixed with a simple rule change, but the attitudes of the refs appear to be that we are to blame for all player acts during warm-ups.

3. And no, I don't think I would have a significant problem with this, but one violation is a problem with the way the rule is written. But there are wierd things that go on in teenagers minds, and that is who we are talking about here. They do lots of things I cannot explain or predict, let alone control. and they do them with full knowledge that they are wrong and carry a penalty.

Not nearly that complicated. Try this: "Hey guys! DO NOT dunk during warmups!" See? Easy stuff... :)

Here's my definition of "dunk":


http://www.liquidgeneration.com/images/buddy/mj.gif

Dunk???? HA! and all this time I thought it said "drunk"!
I guess I won't have to find that picture of JR passed out in the street....

Coach, I honestly don't see this as that big of an issue. I've only seen it called one time in the past 5 years. If discipline exists, it shouldn't be a problem. If the players understand that they can't do it, period, it shouldn't be a problem. Players understand that they can't curse an official. When it happens, the plkayer is normally in a highly emotional state and simsply reacts. There's nothing intense, emotional or highly charged about warming up.

It's a question of discipline. "Guys, dunk in pregame and you won't play tonight." I bet that message gets through loud and clear. Like I said coach, I ain't buying it.

Dunk???? HA! and all this time I thought it said "drunk"!
I guess I won't have to find that picture of JR passed out in the street.... [/B][/QUOTE]Did you mean JR AND Dan?
http://www.gifs.net/animate/bugbike.gif http://www.gifs.net/animate/drunk.gif

Tony, you hit it right on the head!
I didn't need to tell him that I would give him some "slack" on the seatbelt rule. Just do it.

We can equate this to the Coaches Box...if we are going to give a Coach some "slack" on his 6 foot Box, as I'm sure many of us do, we don't tell him before the game we will...we just do it.

Of course if a Coach wants to abuse his privledged "slack" that we have bestowed upon him...so be it...we have ways to tighten up the so called "slack" very easily. :D


Dude

Did you mean JR AND Dan?
http://www.gifs.net/animate/bugbike.gif http://www.gifs.net/animate/drunk.gif [/B][/QUOTE]

LOL! Hey, ain't it about time YOU bought a round? grumble grumble...

Hawk, I agree with you that I don't like this rule. Matter of fact I don't like to put a seatbelt on the coach for an indirect of any kind. However, come Monday you can make them pay for it and hopefully they won't do THAT again.

I really love dunks. When I go to a game I like to see this pregame-exibition-dunk-contest.

Slam it boys.

We don't care if we catch a T.

You can get injured???????????????

Yeah right!

Dunking is the most spectaculair part of basketball it is an essential part of the game. It is what most people like to see most of all moves.

To make a good prefomance you have to go over the skills in your warm up. Otherwise you can get injured!

If you don't wanna dunk!
Go and play chess.

If the basket breaks?
It is not build right

If a ref starts with a T without warning?
He is a joke!

Sigh!

Another coach who's players maybe can dunk,but probably don't know how to pass the ball,dribble or run an offense.Do you work on your players dancing,too,Coach?That's another highly skilled part of the game.Keep working on the important parts of the game,coach.Maybe one day,we'll be seeing your players lose a World's Championship,too.

PS-leave the officiating to people that know what they're doing and go find a coach's or fan's board.You can spend all the time that you want there telling everybody what idiots the officials are.

Are you Mark Cuban in disguise??? If you truely are a coach you are a shame to the game of basketball. IMO w/ a post like this. Quit coaching, Pay your twenty bucks and go watch an NBA game where there will be 35 dunks no defense and 10 players who could careless if they win until March. (no disrespect to the unbelievably talented NBA refs that visit this board)

Haha thats a good one.

You are probaly right coaches should not give their opinion here because in the first place they are no refs, so what do they know?

In the second place they can't teach basketball as well!

Guess communication is your strongest point?

The problem is the fact that we bust our a$$es to give the kids on the floor a fair shake, and to become better officials (99% of us anyways) and it is coaches like you who teach fans, players, commentators, etc.. to think that it is acceptable to berate and blame officials when the fact is you lost the game because you shot 12% from the field or got outrebounded 35 to 12. Or maybe it is because you "know" we missed that call that you were 45 feet away from and had no angle on anyways. :rolleyes:

Like JR said there are plenty of fan boards where you will fit in just fine!!!

[Quote]Originally posted by Coach2
Guess communication is your strongest point?[Quote]

Coach, do you feel you are communicating here...or just venting?

Dude

Actually,we look forward to some of the thoughts that coaches post here.We have some real knowledgeable guys that contribute to this forum with their ideas and thoughts.

We don't consider trolls like yourself as "coaches",to be quite honest.I have too much respect for some of the "coaches" that do post here to give you the same appellation. Maybe "bench babysitters","fans in disguise",etc would be more appropriate. It certainly is hard to give attach any credibility to people like yourself.

Guess i don't make many friends here but I am shocked of the hostility. I know my English is not correct but that Ã*s because I never write it.

I say it is foolish to forbid dunking for a game.

You don't have to agree but I think you don't have to panic.

But I do think you have to come up with better arguments than getting injured, breaking the glass or spend the time on passing drills.

I am sorry I probaly don't join your club, but isn't it nice to hear another sound?

If myy style is too hostile please let me know, i will stop swearing and cursing.

and calling people trolls

Sorry we seemed hostile. It is just that some people come on this board and ignorantly question what we stand for. Most of the talk on this board pertains to HS FED and NC2A basketball and it is clearly defined in the rule book that a player may not dunk in warmups. If a player is that skilled and can dunk why would he need to practice that??? Also if a backboard is broken it creates a huge injury hazard not to mention a mess for the school. If a kid dunks in a game more power to him!!!! (we love to see it too) Also what if a player attempts to dunk and is injured??? Who could be liable??? The refs as we have authority over the contest at that point (Think about that once) It may be different in Europe but that is how it is overhere.

Maybe next time you'll consider your reply before you call any referee a "joke".That was demeaning,and totally unecessary. If you want to disagree with someone,that's fine. But if you start the "namecalling",don't start crying and moaning when someone reciprocates.We have to earn respect by doing our job properly. So do you! You'll never earn any respect with any officials by demeaning them.

Thought it was a joke giving sombody a T without saying something like :,,Hey Big Boy you are not allowed to dunk"
I didn't mean to tell that referees are a joke.


We had this rule in Europe but it doesn't exist anymore and the reasons, as I remember it, were the points I gave. Almost everywere we now have this dunkrims (I don't know the right word) And I haven't seen any broken basket for years now.

I think there is a difference between dunking and trying to destroy the basket! But that will be clear to everybody

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If happens quite often here. Just last year, we had a backboard shatter on a dunk during a high school game at a school that I officiate at. Three players were cut by glass, one of them so severely on the leg that he couldn't play for three games.

Sorry but either will get you a T under high school rules in the U.S.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 15th, 2003 at 03:46 PM]

Tony
Please bear in mind that Coach2 is not a native English speaker, and the word "he" in many languages means the same thing as "it" in our language. He has said that his words may not be correct, and he is trying to communicate a viewpoint on the dnk rule. I accept that explanation.

Fine,Coach. We both made our points. Now we get to forget about it and move on.

Referees aren't supposed to hold grudges,and are supposed to have a short memory. Come to think of it,that supposed to apply to coaches too.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread. . .

What's the definition of the dunk? In pregame, my definition is not hard and fast, but usually includes touching the rim. If you can throw it down from above, and not endanger the rim, glass, or yourself, 99.99% of the time I'm not going to have a call. However, I will say to the player (or his captain, if I know who it is) "If I decide that's a dunk, it's a T. Don't make me decide, ok?"

Chuck

Chuck,are you making up your own definition for a dunk?:confused: Neither the FED or NCAA rulebook definitions mentions the rim as being any factor in the description of a dunk. They both basically say that a dunk is driving,forcing or pushing the ball down through the basket.I agree that those attributes are open for interpretation,but the rim really doesn't have anything to do with it,IMO,unless they hang on it.

I don't think so, JR. In my experience, the vast majority of dunks involve carrying the ball into the cylinder and then forcing the ball through the basket, which inevitably causes the shooter's hand to contact the rim.

As I said, if you can the throw the ball through the basket from above without contacting the rim, then there is a 99.99% chance that you didn't dunk it. I would have a very difficult time calling a T simply b/c the player was able to "throw" the ball through the basket, instead of simply "releasing" it. As always, just my opinion,

Chuck

Yeah,

Whatever.

Still don't understand why dunking before a game is a not to overcome risk and dunking during the game is a well taken risk.

But ok I understand the discusion is not to critizise the rules but more to work with them.

I like Chucks way of handling things

And by the way.

if a coach is nailing the other team I wouldn't be listning to him. I tell him to stay home with his mama. So he can tell her his little brother stole a cookie.

Romano
We are talking high school rules, and I think these rules make sense. High schools can't afford the "slam dunk" rims, players are not as skilled, they want to showboat and break that backboard with the power dunk, etc. A visiting team could trash a basket in warm-ups, at expense to the host school and delay to the start of the game (or postponement). Without illegalizing the warm-up dunk, oit would be just part of the game. Our schools already spend a lot of time and $ fixing bent up rims cause kids don't respect the equipment. Can't afford that kind of abuse.

By the way, our travel leagues all have rules that outlaw dunks, because the schools won't let you in the gym if your players are going to be on their rims all the time. If you dunk in game or warm-up, you are out for that game and the next, by travel league rule.

Don't need to dunk before a game - just warm-up and practice your dunking on your own court, and on your own time.

Than it's simple.

Thanks Hawk

Coach, am I reading you right?
There are no dunks allowed ANYTIME during the pregame warm-ups?

In our region, dunks are allowed in pregame, untill the Officials arrive on the court...usually 15 minutes before game time.
We were told it's not about injury or damage...it's about "showing up" the officials, a good sportsmanship thing. (Personally, I don't care if they dunk...but, it's a rule our association wants enforced)

Dude

Travel league ONLY
 

Schools do not want these non-school teams coming in and trashing the joint on Saturday afternoon, right before their big game on Saturday night.

My bet is that they would charge the league, and the league doesn't want to risk having to pay for damage, hence the league makes a tough rule. It works for me!

Then again, I like Denny Bridges, the former Illinois Wesleyan coach (most famous alum was Jack Sikma of the world champion SUPERsonics). Upon his recent retirement after an unbelievable number of years coaching at IWU, he just finished a book titled "A Dunk is Only Worth Two Points." It's on my birthday list! (if you wanna get it for me, I'll be happy to give you my address :) )